tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

this is a online 5-10 hand vs 2p2er whitelime. we know who each other is, we chat strategy and other stuff regularly on AIM. generally, we stay out of each others way to some extent, but this is mostly WRT PF type of stuff.

4handed game.
eff stax, 1220.

whitelime opens UTG for 35, button calls, sb folds, i call in BB w/ 55

flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](110)
check, check, check.

turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img](110)
i bet 85, whitelime calls, button folds.

river K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](280)
i bet 235, whitelime goes AI (i have 865 left)

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

the first question is call or fold?

now anohter Q.
if u call, do u also call QJ?
if u fold, do u also fold Tc8c?

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

i think whitelime is capable of doing this with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but i would prob still give him credit against you bc its not a play he would necessarily make vs you. hes also def capable of calling turn w the nuts

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

Can you give us any more reads on the game and the villain at the time? If he turned the nut flush wouldn't he be raising to build himself a pot?

He could have A10 with the ace of clubs but would he make that type of move with the straight? This one is super hard because your hand is totally disguised, its hard to tell what he has you on.

I'm going to hold out to see if there are any more reads you can give us before I give my answers.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

a good player knowingly pushes this board against a known good player can't be all that great a spot for you. That said I used to love to pull off nutish low bluffs against my friends and show it, so I'd have to factor in the "friend bluff" a bit but it still looks like a fold considering all factors.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

Because I'm usually such a nit this is a good time for me to pick him off with anything, but you're not me. I'm voting fold solely because he knows you're aggro and probably calling a bunch of stuff here fairly often.

Tc8c can't be all that much better, but would he ever just call a set or KcKx on the turn?

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because I'm usually such a nit this is a good time for me to pick him off with anything, but you're not me. I'm voting fold solely because he knows you're aggro and probably calling a bunch of stuff here fairly often.

Tc8c can't be all that much better, but would he ever just call a set or KcKx on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to shove the river with.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

Hmm. his pf range is huge.

his flop check is interesting. Could be ace high flush draw. Its never QQ or JJ. Could be something like gutshot.

He doesnt call your 2/3 pot bet with AT or so, MAYBE A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Tx. Unlikely any one pair hand checks the flop as well.

Clearly on the river his bet is a nuts or nothing push, as h's not value pushing KQ type hand nor can I believe he checked a set.. or called a bet on the turn with a gusthot (unless th gutshot had a NFD too)

did you initially bet that w/ the intention of folding ot a raise?


this would be so much nicer if he just bet the f'ing flop, button calls, you c/r, and push any turn! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, you're probably right to fold this river. but I can understand calling.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
the first question is call or fold?

now anohter Q.
if u call, do u also call QJ?
if u fold, do u also fold Tc8c?

[/ QUOTE ]

as said in my post, it's nuts or nothing. Clearly if he has nothing it's a combination of A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]X. The X could be something like AJ, AK, etc. that he checked th flop with. (xouls understand) a hand like top pair cant beat all his bluffs, and should be folded. a hand like a flush is the same as a set, as it beats all one pair bluffs. if you call w/ the set you call with those too. although having the flush yourself leaves fewer combinations of flushes he could have, so on that basis id be more apt to call with a flush myself.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
the first question is call or fold?

now anohter Q.
if u call, do u also call QJ?
if u fold, do u also fold Tc8c?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call with one you should call with all 3 IMO, and vice versa.

Personally since all I do is call too much, I'd call all 3. Although you probably see A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] very often.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

there's more here than apparent on first glance. i think all three hands are a reluctant fold - IMO, they're essentially equal here, with this action. if you look at the board (as i'm sure you're implying from this question), if you held 10c8c the only likely flushes he could have would be the nut flush, Kc9c or AcKc (both of which he would have most def bet the flop), 6c5c (of which he would have definitely bet), or 4c5c (same). Sets and two pair would have also bet the flop, as would overpairs. So you're either up against AcXc, or Ac10x, or a bluff. His hand range is very slim, for sure.

i don't think he's calling the turn to bluff the river; i don't know if i've played with him, but i assume he'd raise the turn if he were bluffing - mainly to define your hand. there's no way he knows that you don't have a flush yourself. so in the end, i'd give him credit for the one or two hands he could possibly have that wins, especially since you guys don't get too out of line with one another.

to sum it up, when he raises the river, you're f*cked

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

if this was a bluff, it was a pretty [censored] awesome job.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

I don't know, I don't think he will check nutflush on the flop at all often since that's the only point in the hand where the hand is real good. He would definately not check ATcc, wheras AcQx, AcJx and AcTx is very possible.

This hand troubles me, I'm really wondering whether he would ever push this river with AcTx (e.g without a flush), since that obviously changes the answer of your question into a call with the flush and while still a fold with the other hands. This also comes down to a lot what he thinks you'll be leading this river with (with the hand played as it was), and what you're capable calling with.

I mean we're getting into very awkward territory if he's trying to somehow push for value with a straight, and you would think you're basically calling a bluff when you have a flush.

Pushing river with straight seems veeeeeeeeeeery awkward, (and pretty bad to me), but I don't know your history.

This seems like a fold with all three to me, but I really hate mixing your play up with a check with nutflush on the flop here; checking with AQ, AJ (even with Ac of course) some of the time is just fine by me, but checking Axcc is pushing it imo.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

seems like a pretty easy fold. He doesn't have AA.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

I'd say this is an easy fold.

Kirk

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
seems like a pretty easy fold. He doesn't have AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, k.


This is a really great play from villian, and it's very hard to fold this. I really don't think I could, especially within the short time frame. If I call, I expect to see a flush, if I fold, I expect to see the lone Ac, lol.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say this is an easy fold.

Kirk

[/ QUOTE ]

i think its much closer than that. the biggest issue imo is whether or not you think whitelime will make a big play against his 'friend'

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

I would almost always bet this flop 3/4 pot because it has so many draws. Fold river to probable flush.

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

pretty sure he was looking to chk/raise a c-bet

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
pretty sure he was looking to chk/raise a c-bet

[/ QUOTE ]


duh i think he knows that

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

this is a great spot to lead the flop. when you c/r there the jig is up

Re: tough river spot vs tough 2p2er
 

Since you know villian very well, what hands do you expect to get value from on your river bet that takes his line?