Big river fold in level 1.
 

Normally I'm not one to make big river laydowns but this situation seemed to warrant one. This is about 5 hands in so obviously no reads. It's the 69+6 12.5k guaranteed on FTP.

Full Tilt Poker Game #681076775: $12,500 Guarantee (4366979), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:05:04 ET - 2006/06/01
Seat 1: here_to_take (2,090)
Seat 2: Toad31 (1,030)
Seat 3: Macspider (1,380)
Seat 4: All-In-DallasTx (1,380)
Seat 5: iMsoLucky0 (1,500)
Seat 6: wormcamden (1,590)
Seat 7: texca (1,620)
Seat 8: heebos (1,410)
Seat 9: westpa (1,500)
All-In-DallasTx posts the small blind of 15
iMsoLucky0 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to iMsoLucky0 [3d Qd]
wormcamden folds
texca folds
heebos folds
westpa folds
here_to_take calls 30
Toad31 folds
Macspider raises to 60
All-In-DallasTx calls 45
iMsoLucky0 calls 30
here_to_take folds
*** FLOP *** [Td 3h Kc]
All-In-DallasTx checks
iMsoLucky0 checks
Macspider checks
*** TURN *** [Td 3h Kc] [3s]
All-In-DallasTx checks
iMsoLucky0 bets 175
Macspider calls 175
All-In-DallasTx folds
*** RIVER *** [Td 3h Kc 3s] [Jh]
iMsoLucky0 bets 210
Macspider raises to 1,145, and is all in
iMsoLucky0 has 15 seconds left to act
iMsoLucky0 folds
Uncalled bet of 935 returned to Macspider


Can anyone see him doing this with a hand I beat?

In retrospect I think I need to go into check call mode on the river here to eliminate the possibility of him bluffing me off the best hand and to extract value from hands that may fold to a strongish bet. Thoughts?

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

Absolutely C/C the river and feel sick calling when he bets it.

The min-raise over a limper is disgusting preflop, and TT/JJ/KK/AQ really make up a huge portion my range for him.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

J,


Checking the river is really really bad imo. Very weak, tons of worse hands that make sense call you with a bet but would check behind and bluffs dont make much sense in his spot. Calling and folding as played are both ok, but open checking would be very weak.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

Who asked you apathy? You act like you know how to play deepstacked NL or something.

Seriously though, you don't like check calling the river? I mean, what kind of a hand can he pay you off with there? AJ maybe? JT, QQ perhaps? It just seems like there is much more value in checking to induce a bluff.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

Lots of 2 pair and 1 pair hands will call you that would check behind.

[ QUOTE ]
It just seems like there is much more value in checking to induce a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

No hands call the turn to plan to bluff the river. The only hand I can think of would be Qx that might fire but would fold to a bet and you have a Q in your hand.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

Meh, okay fine. You're better than me, I admit it.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, okay fine. You're better than me, I admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I don't know about that.... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img], just less results oriented?

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

Yep totally, I think you have to bet (there're a million hands on the river that pay you off) but the raise = the nuts.

I would have to think about calling with AQ tbh, because a badly played AK or AA are the only two hands you beat.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

i have trouble ever making a big laydown on FT - there's some momos there that'd push with some really weird hands.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

I think that the ideal play here would be to go into check/call mode, so you don't have to put your tournament life on the line with a really tough decision.

By checking the river you also give the villain the opportunity to stab at it with hands like 99 or 88, maybe even a frustrated QQ.... Plus if he hit his jack on a hand like AJ he's going to value bet it too. I just dont think that leading out on the river is the ideal play here.

-mantis

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the ideal play here would be to go into check/call mode, so you don't have to put your tournament life on the line with a really tough decision.

By checking the river you also give the villain the opportunity to stab at it with hands like 99 or 88, maybe even a frustrated QQ.... Plus if he hit his jack on a hand like AJ he's going to value bet it too. I just dont think that leading out on the river is the ideal play here.

-mantis

[/ QUOTE ]

WELCOME

And not just because you said C/C too.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

[ QUOTE ]

i have trouble ever making a big laydown on FT - there's some momos there that'd push with some really weird hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

Yo betting river is definitely standard, and so is folding to a raise.

GB, I highly doubt he is going to be betting those hands with showdown value that you mentioned.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

I'm guilty of underestimating opponents too often, but this isn't a 109r we're talking. It's a $75 tourney on FTP. I think there's a number of hands Villain bets on the river besides AQ/Full House.

Basically by betting, we are almost never going to be just called here. We are broadcasting what we have, and are either going to get a reraise or a fold in turn.

So to that I ask the board's favorite question: Is this a value bet or a bluff?

Obviously it's not a bluff, but I don't think we're getting any value here.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

[ QUOTE ]
put your tournament life on the line

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not from around here, are you? :-)

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

Put yourself in Villains shoes. If you had the nuts (FH) would you push like this, or would you bet just enough to entice a call? If you had the near nuts (Straight) I think a push only gets called by a FH or another straight (which the villain may be a total donk and not recognize this) so I think a call/showdown would be in order. My guess is that this push is a donked up AA/AK (or even KJ, I've seen this at this level) and a call is in order. The line is so messed up that it seems unlikely that he had the nuts.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

It's pretty obvious Hero has trips or better, so a push from the nuts would be perfectly reasonable on the river, as many players will not fold a 3 for any amount of money.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty obvious Hero has trips or better, so a push from the nuts would be perfectly reasonable on the river, as many players will not fold a 3 for any amount of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
put your tournament life on the line

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not from around here, are you? :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he's not. But he's still a helluva player and we could all learn something from him.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yo betting river is definitely standard, and so is folding to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but have you PLAYED on Full Tilt? People do this with KJ, JT, any busted draw (not that there are any really)... and also, any 3.

I like the fold in a vacuum but I don't think I'd be able to make it given the weird [censored] I've seen. I think the way the hand played out though it's probably KK/JJ and I'd be kicking myself for not making it.

Re: Big river fold in level 1.
 

I would still call and he would flip over KJ.