Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

I finished pot limit and no limit poker by stewart and Ciaffone. There were a few insightful points about big bet poker but frankly I did not like this book at all. I found the author's over reliance on specific hand examples again and again which concluded with them informing the reader "this is a fold, call,or raise" without much in the way of concrete reasoning which could be applied elsewhere to be confusing and boring. Additionally the tone of the authors in how they viewed limit poker, their opponents at time even the reader to be annoying. The book had sections on various forms of poker which I don't play and I found myself skipping over them. There was a section on game theory concerning bluffing on the end which I thought was interesting and like I said there were some insightful parts which could be of value in river play.

Overall I would only recommend this book to the most avid of poker reader and would consider it inferior to even the free forums. It should also be said that it is much more an PLO book than NLH and I think the title in misleading in what respect.

Pot limit and No Limit Holdem by Reuben and Ciaffone [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

I found that it somewhat failed to live up to its reputation. That said, I don't get, "much more an PLO book than NLH," unless you bought it expecting to get 150 pages of NLHE and found much more PLO than you expected (i.e, zero). Trying to cover all those games probably makes it fail to cover any of them particularly well, but I don't see an undue emphasis on PLO versus, say, London Lowball.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

I was also dissapointed in this book. I am surprised it was so highly recommeded by many here. I was hoping for more insight into starting hands and play after the flop than "scoot it all into the middle".

I hope Kill Phil and The Little Green Book are better.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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I was also dissapointed in this book. I am surprised it was so highly recommeded by many here. I was hoping for more insight into starting hands and play after the flop than "scoot it all into the middle".


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The book is more about theory and concepts than about basic strategy. It assumes that you are already a good player.


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I hope Kill Phil and The Little Green Book are better.

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Those books are about tournaments. The Reuben and Ciaffone book is about ring games.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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I hope Kill Phil and The Little Green Book are better.

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The Stewart/Ciaffone book was out 7 years before anything else decent on the topic of big bet poker. Gotta give some props for that. When there was little else other than Super/System, it was gold.

Regards,

T

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

[censored],

You are way off base here. This is a great book and must reading for big bet players. Mason gave it a very positive review as well in the past. I don't mean to imply it is perfect, and Mason indeed commented that he wished that they has divulged more "secrets". WRT NL in particular, reading the archives here and all that Ray Zee has posted about big bet in the past would reveal a lot of stuff that they either didn't talk about explicitly, or just made a passing reference to. However its strongest points are those dealing with the mathematics of big bet poker and the impact on betting on a current street in regards to the sizes of bets on later streets, stack size adjustments, and what types of hands should be played in what positions and situations. There is a lot of deeper advice that can be missed in just one reading, when you should reread it and think carefully about smaller chunks of it. Also the hand examples you refer to, do in fact give explanations, albeit brief ones, for why you should or should not take a certain action. In fact if you didn't get much from the hand examples, then it is likely you didn't study the texts preceding them thoroughly enough.

As I said it is not perfect in that it is both not a complete course on big bet regarding NL especially, and in that it is densely packed with information that requires serious thought to unlock all the meaning from. But I guarantee that you will never be successful in big bet poker if you can't extract a lot of value from it.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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I hope Kill Phil and The Little Green Book are better.

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The Stewart/Ciaffone book was out 7 years before anything else decent on the topic of big bet poker. Gotta give some props for that. When there was little else other than Super/System, it was gold.

Regards,

T

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+1

Those who come to the Ciaffone/Reuben book after reading HOH1 and Little Green Book and 2+2 forums are spoiled. It was a grounbreaking book at the time, and still is very good IMO.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

I also thought this book was over rated after my first read through. It is not only lacking in detail but the writing is at times poorly structured. However, I am getting more out of it on the second read through. There are some important/powerful concepts under discussion in the book - they just don't necessarily grab you first time through.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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I also thought this book was over rated after my first read through. It is not only lacking in detail but the writing is at times poorly structured. However, I am getting more out of it on the second read through. There are some important/powerful concepts under discussion in the book - they just don't necessarily grab you first time through.

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This is exactly how I feel. I still think it's kinda overrated, but I am definitely starting to understand some of the things they are saying. While this is great for me, it's a flaw of the book that it wasn't clear the first time through. A good book shouldn't be such a mystery.

Reuben's writing is much weaker than Ciaffone's.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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[ QUOTE ]
However, I am getting more out of it on the second read through. There are some important/powerful concepts under discussion in the book - they just don't necessarily grab you first time through.

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This is exactly how I feel. I still think it's kinda overrated, but I am definitely starting to understand some of the things they are saying. While this is great for me, it's a flaw of the book that it wasn't clear the first time through. A good book shouldn't be such a mystery.



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That may not be the fault of the book. In things like this, you are always going to get more out of a good book after reading it the first time and then getting some playing time under your belt. Some things just can't be explained in a book if you don't have the foundation of knowledge and experience to understand them.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

its a great book, you just arent good at cards

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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That may not be the fault of the book. In things like this, you are always going to get more out of a good book after reading it the first time and then getting some playing time under your belt. Some things just can't be explained in a book if you don't have the foundation of knowledge and experience to understand them.

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Maybe. I am not an experienced NL player. Still, there are other poker books I have felt like were clearer and better organized.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

The reason for the somewhat disjointed structure of the book was that each author separately wrote an essay for most topics and then reviewed each other's, after which both were put in without combining them. Mr. Reuben mentions this in his latest book Poker 24/7.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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Still, there are other poker books I have felt like were clearer and better organized.

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This is true, without a doubt. Lots of the topics are difficult mainly due to an unnnecessarily dense writing style. I think you can ding the book for that. However, this book rewards careful study.

Regards,

T

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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The book had sections on various forms of poker which I don't play and I found myself skipping over them.

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Well yeah, if you read the introductory stuff and then skip over the meat, most poker books aren't that good.

In my opinion, this is one of the best poker books every written, easily top five.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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It should also be said that it is much more an PLO book than NLH and I think the title in misleading in what respect.

Pot limit and No Limit Holdem by Reuben and Ciaffone [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

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I just wanted to point out that the book is called Pot-Limit and No-Limit Poker (not just hold'em). The title isn't misleading. Also, FWIW, I think this book is one of the best cash game books out there.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

OT i just ordered this book along with improve your poker.
i play NLHE mostly. having read this thread i am half expecting to be disappointed with PL&NLP although i'll wait and read before i judge. for those disappointed with PL&NLP and read IYP were you also disappointed with IYP?

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

Improve Your Poker is a very good book. As is No Limit and Pot Limit Poker, the OP's opinion nothwithstanding.

Regards,

T

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

I think IYP is very good. So far it has been more useful to me than PLNLP.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

I am about to start reading this for a poker book club from another online forum I am in, this is our first read. I hope its better then some of these reviews I just hope its as good as I have heard.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

I have just finished reading this book and was very disappointed. I started reading it last summer and it has taken me uptil now to finish it because i keeped putting it down and picking up other books. I've read 3 other books in between reading PL&NLP.
Before reading the book I read some reviews and was determined to read the whole book and not just the hold em sections. I mananged to read the Holdem omaha and 7cs sections. But in the end I found my self skipping over the chapters I don;t play just to finish the book quicker.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

This book has helped me, probably more than any other single book. I'm sure it's paid for itself hundreds of times over.

Sorry it didn't work for you.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

This is a brilliant book. Every month or two someone posts about how it's not that good etc. Sometimes they say that it is all very basic information that might help a beginner, but that most other players will already know everything that it discusses! Nothing could be further from the truth. I think these people just haven't read it properly, and haven't understood the depth of ideas and concepts lurking beneath the surface of the text. It is possible that you have to reach a certain standard of play before you see that the book is actually rather deep.

And you've got to read THE WHOLE BOOK, not just the sections on Hold'em. Many of the important big bet concepts are outlined in chapters on, for example, London Lowball. These concepts are applicable to Hold'em too, even if they do not appear in as pure a form. If all you've done is read the Hold'em sections through once and maybe skimmed some of the other chapters then you are not placed to judge this book.

Mind you, I think the Hold'em sections are really good anyway. Ciaffone's chapter discussing starting hands is superb and is one of the best things written about the relative values of starting hands in NL/PL vs Limit. And there are some great discussions of how stack size and position can affect the play of a hand.

Ok, there are now other good books out that deal with big bet poker. And some important concepts and ideas are discussed more clearly or in more depth in these more recent books. And it is not perfectly written (Reuben has a unique style which is a little irritating to most people I imagine). However, there is a lot of meat in this book. You just may have to suck some of it from the bones.

Read it again. It must be one of the ten best books written on poker, and probably one of the very few truly exceptional books written on big bet cash game play.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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I was hoping for more insight into starting hands and play after the flop than "scoot it all into the middle".

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What!!

Some of the discuss in of later street play is extremely advanced. The "scoot it all into the middle" quote is from a section of the book in which Ciaffone is addressing the structural differences between PL and NL Hold'em. More particularly he is discussing how drawing hands can sometimes be much harder to play in (deep stacked) PL games, as opposed to NL games. What he's saying is that even premium draws (e.g. straight flush draw with 2 overcards) are often difficult to play in deep-stacked Pot Limit if you are unable to get all your money in on the flop, since - assuming you miss on the turn - you will be out of position with only one card to come, and your hand loses a lot of value. He is saying that this contrasts with NL because in NL you can, if you choose, simply get your whole stack in on the flop with your premium draw - probably through a check-raise push (this is where the phrase "scoot your stack to the middle is used").

What he is actually doing here is trying to get to the very essence of one of the crucial differences between Pot Limit and No Limit. One reason that many people consider PL to be a more skillful game than NL is precisely because of structural differences like this.

If all you took from this section is that Ciaffone talks about pushing your whole stack in on the flop then I am afraid you have missed the whole point of the discussion. But also, this is just one little section. There is a great deal of discussion of post flop/later street strategy throughout the book, and the "scoot your stack to the middle" phrase in used only once, in one particular section.

As regards your wish for "more insight into starting hands", I think this is rather unfair. Ciaffone has a brilliant little section on starting hands in PL/NL. He uses a discussion of how the value of starting hands changes in PL/NL when compared to Limit as a means to discuss what different starting hands are hoping to 'build'. I thought this section was really well written. But also, remember that starting hand selection is much less important in (deep stacked) big bet poker. If you hoped for tables of starting hands a la Sklanky's LIMIT hand groups then you are thinking about NLHE in the wrong way.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

Forget this book, get NLHET&P instead.

The book assumes you are familar with all the games mentioned in the book. Some of the poker terms used on these games will be lost on many, and there is no glossery for those who have yet to come across these terms.

IMO you have to be very experienced player to understand what is being said.(sections other than hold em) Also the information obtained would be of lesser value to the experienced player.

With all the books now availble or the 2+2 NLHE cash games books soon to be availble, this book will become largely redundent.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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Forget this book, get NLHET&P instead.

The book assumes you are familar with all the games mentioned in the book. Some of the poker terms used on these games will be lost on many, and there is no glossery for those who have yet to come across these terms.

IMO you have to be very experienced player to understand what is being said.(sections other than hold em) Also the information obtained would be of lesser value to the experienced player.

With all the books now availble or the 2+2 NLHE cash games books soon to be availble, this book will become largely redundent.

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I partially agree, and partially disagree.

NLH:T&P is an introductory to intermediate book. Pot odds, starting hand selection, playing the nuts & how to try and stack people etc. It also has a lot of bugs that stem from the fact that Ed and DS can't play NL worth [censored].

PL&NLP is an advanced book - providing directly applicable real-world advice to the advanced player from an advanced player. The only problem is that Ciaffone's co-author (Ruben or however he spells it) is an idiot. That aside, the info here is infinitely more valuable than that in NLH:T&P because it's actually correct. But you have to have a good grasp of the games in question to get at the meat of the book. So beginners read it and come away confused and then come bash it on 2+2. Sort of like how they respond to Doyle's stuff.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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IMO you have to be very experienced player to understand what is being said.(sections other than hold em) Also the information obtained would be of lesser value to the experienced player.

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I believe your observation is valid. A beginer might not grasp the difficult concepts and an expert player might already understand them. However, I would hazard to guess almost every player at some point is in the no-mans land in between and this book might help them break through.

I experienced several "a ha" moments when reading the book and still consider it one of the 2 best books for NLHE players. (The other being HoH1.)

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

There are lots of people who say PLNLP is great, many highly recommend it, so it will be good for most I think. Personally, I think it's very ABC, not worth to get (it has a couple of pages about nl-holdem, mainly about how he thinks one should play draws at nl-holdem, so maybe some intermediate to advanced player may get something out of it, though not likely these days); I recommend not to get it.

NLHTP is a great book of NL holdem theory, the information has been learned well that's out there, and that too shows. No ABC-book. One problem (if not counting what it does not contain) is the often poor text of how to play vs. tight or timid opponents. Then, of course, it could be more a how-to-book (I like those, when they are reasoned too, some good player putting on paper of how he plays and why, and one can read several books like that, sure helps even if one will never play like any one of them) but it's mainly about theory, but that's what it was made for and not to contain the whole world.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

I had heard rumor that Ciaffone was working on a book specific to NLH. Can anyone confirm this, and when it might release? Hopefully this new book won't get into discussions about London Lowball, etc.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

The book fails to explain the concepts of NL and PL in a rather obvious way:

A. It doesn't cover betting schemes. It doesn't tell you when (and why) to make a min-raise, when to bet half the pot, when to bet 2/3, potsize or all-in.

B. It doesn't explain the difference in pre-flop selection between NL and PL.

Last but not least, it's not a book in the traditional sense, it's a collection of essays.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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The book fails to explain the concepts of NL and PL in a rather obvious way:

A. It doesn't cover betting schemes. It doesn't tell you when (and why) to make a min-raise, when to bet half the pot, when to bet 2/3, potsize or all-in.

B. It doesn't explain the difference in pre-flop selection between NL and PL.

Last but not least, it's not a book in the traditional sense, it's a collection of essays.

[/ QUOTE ]
Guess you didn't read too carefully, since each and every topic you mention is discussed (although I don't think the authors ever advocate a min raise, which is fine).

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

It's not that the book is bad, it's just outdated.

Sure it was great back in it's time as supersystem was.
Today most people don't play these "other" games in PL&NLP and S/S. Infact I'm pretty sure reading S/S, the WHOLE book would actually improve my NLHE quited a bit.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

This book is as deep & subtle as it gets in poker literature.
Re-read it, absorb it, think about it.
Don't skip over any sections.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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[ QUOTE ]
The book fails to explain the concepts of NL and PL in a rather obvious way:

A. It doesn't cover betting schemes. It doesn't tell you when (and why) to make a min-raise, when to bet half the pot, when to bet 2/3, potsize or all-in.

B. It doesn't explain the difference in pre-flop selection between NL and PL.

Last but not least, it's not a book in the traditional sense, it's a collection of essays.

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Guess you didn't read too carefully, since each and every topic you mention is discussed (although I don't think the authors ever advocate a min raise, which is fine).

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There is a difference between vaguely mentioning something in two to three sentences and analysing it deeply. For me everything in this book is written way too superficial.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

[ QUOTE ]
This book is as deep & subtle as it gets in poker literature.
Re-read it, absorb it, think about it.
Don't skip over any sections.

[/ QUOTE ]

?????

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

It's not supposed to teach you basic strategy -- there's plenty of other books which talk about betting schemes etc. It covers some pretty esoteric concepts which go beyond basic strategy. I agree that it's more a collection of related essays than anything else.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

Unfortunately, at the current level of poker literature, betting schemes are as deep as it gets.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The book fails to explain the concepts of NL and PL in a rather obvious way:

A. It doesn't cover betting schemes. It doesn't tell you when (and why) to make a min-raise, when to bet half the pot, when to bet 2/3, potsize or all-in.

B. It doesn't explain the difference in pre-flop selection between NL and PL.

Last but not least, it's not a book in the traditional sense, it's a collection of essays.

[/ QUOTE ]
Guess you didn't read too carefully, since each and every topic you mention is discussed (although I don't think the authors ever advocate a min raise, which is fine).

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There is a difference between vaguely mentioning something in two to three sentences and analysing it deeply. For me everything in this book is written way too superficial.

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The basic stuff is superficial because Bob assumes you know it. They go into more detail on concepts that the average person who knows how to play OK already might be interested in.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

It's a great book, it was the third book I read on poker and I still reread it every 6 months or so. It's not an easy read, it is definately not an ABC style book, but in some ways it is all the better for this. If you have to work at understanding it you will learn more than being told 'raise here, fold there'.
I have to disagree with the poster who says it is out of date, it is before it's time.....when it was written LHE and stud were the big games....now everyone is playing NLHE, PLO and PLO8.
It also helps if you're from the UK where we play pot-limit everything. I'm playing stud, lowball draw and london lowball in our home game every week and there are no other books on the big bet versions of these games (OK, SS has lowball draw).
I think the problem people have is that it is more a collection of concepts rather than instruction so please don't read chapters in isolation as you will learn things from reading about the games you don't play.

Re: Review of Pot Limit and No Limit Poker by Stewart and Ciaffone
 

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I had heard rumor that Ciaffone was working on a book specific to NLH. Can anyone confirm this, and when it might release? Hopefully this new book won't get into discussions about London Lowball, etc.

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This book has been delayed so often, it may never be finished. From what I heard when he first started writing it, it was to be a NLHE book in the style of his middle limit book- i.e. lots of hand examples. I think it was originally intended to be finished 2 years ago.