How fishy?
 

Was my call on the flop that fishy?
16-1 odds with just 2 overcards and backdoor draws.

Also, should I have 3-bet pre-flop, even OOP?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP1 folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (16.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 22.50 BB

Hero has Kh Ah (straight, ace high).
UTG has Js Jd (three of a kind, jacks).
Button has Qh As (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 22.50 BB.

Re: How fishy?
 

Not fishy at all. You had the outs to call this turn for sure with the gutshot alone.

Re: How fishy?
 

not fishy at all. its a good flop call given the odds you are getting. Must watch for reverse domination from hands like KJ, AJ etc though.

Re: How fishy?
 

Good call on the flop, particularly given that PFR, the most likely player to reverse dominate you, had folded. 3-bet PF and hope someone caps for you. This is a premium hand. You want as much money in as you can get in and position be damned. You could bet the turn too. Make a note of UTG. Didn't raise his pocket jacks PF, sandbagged on the flop even when he had seen a bet called by three who he'd have to believe would call another one back to them, and then decided to play on the turn. File under clueless.

Re: How fishy?
 

Gotta 3bet preflop. Your hand is way, way too good.

Re: How fishy?
 

raise/cap preflop, you might wanna c/r the turn

Re: How fishy?
 

Grunch:

3-bet preflop, AKs is a monster. You have a huge edge against so many people, you must exploit it.

After 3-betting I lead this flop against 3 villains, I usually check against more. The call is good, you had a lot of outs (overs, BDFD, weak BDSD).

Re: How fishy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you might wanna c/r the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] no

Re: How fishy?
 

I would 3-bet preflop (and then check the flop, versus this many people).

Postflop is perfect.

Re: How fishy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise/cap preflop, you might wanna c/r the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Just call.

UTG has a monster (your A and K "outs" aren't looking very good anymore). You shouldn't have to look at the results to know that. And you have good relative position for the river.

Edit: Er, okay, we don't know about UTG's turn checkraise yet when we get the opportunity to make one. So I don't hate the idea. Among other things, we could have an equity edge versus four remaining opponents, with our overcards, gutshot, and nut flush draw. We might even buy a couple of A or K outs, if BB or UTG has us reverse-dominated.

I still think I prefer a call, though.

Edit 2: Eh, never mind. It's probably at least close, and it's possible a checkraise is best. It's an ususual spot, though, so checkraising shouldn't be your instinct here or anything.

Re: How fishy?
 

Edit 3:

You know what? Yes, feel free to checkraise the turn.

I'm not used to hands like this one anymore, but I think a turn checkraise is quite likely best. You could buy as many as four outs here, and while you won't buy that many outs on average, or probably even close to it, your equity isn't so bad anyway.

Just don't follow up by betting the river if you miss your multitude of potential outs. Check-fold the river in that case instead.

Re: How fishy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit 3:

You know what? Yes, feel free to checkraise the turn.

I'm not used to hands like this one anymore, but I think a turn checkraise is possibly best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why have you changed your mind from calling the turn to check raising ?

Does the possibility of cleaning up your overcard outs (before you know that UTG is probably beating top pair) swing this for you ?

Edit: Ok, you answered my question, at the same time that I was posting.

Re: How fishy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Edit 3:

You know what? Yes, feel free to checkraise the turn.

I'm not used to hands like this one anymore, but I think a turn checkraise is possibly best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why have you changed your mind from calling the turn to check raising ?

Does the possibility of cleaning up your overcard outs (before you know that UTG is probably beating top pair) swing this for you ?

Edit: Ok, you answered my question, at the same time that I was posting.

[/ QUOTE ]

To explain the reason for my change of opinion (or to try to):

I'm not used to pots that are this big and have so many people still involved anymore.

But in large pots, increasing your chances of winning, if you have the chance to, can be a very good thing. And while in protected pots like this one you won't have favorable opportunities to buy outs on the turn very often, this could be one of those rare opportunities.

Our draw is huge, and a turn checkraise from us will look very scary at this point. So hands that have us reverse-dominated might fold for two more. Which would help our chances of winning.

And we do have our massive draw to fall back on, if we get cold-called instead (or even if we go to the river 3-handed).

Re: How fishy?
 

I'm confused by the "check raise the turn" crowd here. A check raise could scare off people we are beating if we make the flush/straight, either of which are likely to be good if we make them.

I would lead out with a bet on this turn 100% of the time. That turn card is the best possible turn card we could have gotten (giving you both your straight and flush draws).

Re: How fishy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused by the "check raise the turn" crowd here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible I was being over-exuberant. But our equity is decent in this multiway pot, even with only one card left to come, and folding out K6 or A5, or both, while hurting the odds we're getting on our bigger draws, would at least improve our chances of winning.

I'll admit though that this isn't as significant with just one card left to come and just one round of betting left as it would be on the flop (if we already had our great draw then), where our chances of hitting would be better and the implied odds involved would also be greater. (Among other things, by the time we get to the turn, the bets have already doubled.)

[ QUOTE ]
A check raise could scare off people we are beating if we make the flush/straight, either of which are likely to be good if we make them.

[/ QUOTE ]

We should feel great about a flush or a straight if we make those hands, and a straight can't lose. (And we won't scare anyone out who could make a boat at the same time we made a flush.)

Those aren't the only draws we have, though.

[ QUOTE ]
I would lead out with a bet on this turn 100% of the time. That turn card is the best possible turn card we could have gotten (giving you both your straight and flush draws).

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. I don't hate this idea, but I'd rather check and see what developed.

Re: How fishy?
 

I just want to say how much i enjoyed watching UTG lose this hand. LMAO.

Re: How fishy?
 

Grunch:

3bet PF, bet out the flop, the rest is goood

Re: How fishy?
 

I would 3 bet preflop. Just call with AKo if you want but I think you're giving up too much by not jamming it here.

Otherwise nh.