AK interesting turn
 

Hero raises A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] UTG, 2 folds, strong 24/14/1.6 button 3-bets, 40/15.1/1.6 calls in SB, BB folds.

Flop - K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds

Turn - Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero.....

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

He wouldn't of 3 bet with KQ, QQ-99 most likely seeing as he looked sheepish on the flop.

AK split maybe but I would bet here then call down if he raises.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

I advocate check/folding as the best line here.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I advocate check/folding as the best line here.

True

[/ QUOTE ]
thats prolly best line, but i cannot lay down this so i check call down.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I advocate check/folding as the best line here.

True

[/ QUOTE ]
thats prolly best line, but i cannot lay down this so i check call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think bet/folding is the second best line. The reason for this is that when you check, he will bet all the hands that beat you but check behind the ones that don't. I think betting is clearly better than check/folding because he may SOMETIMES (not frequently enough for bet/folding to be better than check/folding) call down with a worse hand. I think his action on this turn however is seldom call, so that is why I believe this line to have no merit.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I advocate check/folding as the best line here.

True

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I think its way too likely that we're throwing away the best hand here. alot of TAGs would play 66-JJ like this. So i think its a bet/call-down scenario. Folding winners = ultimate suck.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

I don't know, I'm confused. I'd b/c if I were actually playing, but I don't know if that's right.

I think he's very capable of 3-betting KQ preflop here. I doubt a king weaker than that is 3-betting preflop though. So if you're up against a king, you're probably either behind or chopping.

If you're up against something like JJ-99, then checking and giving him a free card with 2 outs is about .65 big bets. Worth it if he'd fold the turn but call a river bet because of the weakness you showed by checking the turn.

I'm not too scared of a flush draw, since both the ace and king of spades are out.

So maybe c/c the turn and donk the river? Man, that's probably awful advice, but this seems like a WA/WB situation. KQ has you drawing to 3 outs. If you're ahead, you most likely have him drawing to 2 outs or less (Qx is fairly unlikely I think). Pot's getting big, but not big enough that giving somebody a free card to 2 outs is a disaster if it makes them willing to put another bet in on the river.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I advocate check/folding as the best line here.

True

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I think its way too likely that we're throwing away the best hand here. alot of TAGs would play 66-JJ like this. So i think its a bet/call-down scenario. Folding winners = ultimate suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think bet/call down is the worst line. In my opinion his pfr range to 3-bet my UTG raise is likely 99 TT JJ QQ KK AA, AK, AKs, AQ, AQs, AJs, KQs.

n.b. I dont have a 13% pfr so it may be even tighter than this.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

if he can have QQ he can have JJ and TT.

if you check here you have A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Re: AK interesting turn
 

@ Nschandler :

If I check the turn and he checks, then I will donk the river. However I still believe folding to be better than calling the turn when we check.

IF he has AK I believe he would 3-bet the flop, so I think "if he has a K we are behind".

@ Dyson
FWIW, I would bet a flush draw here if I had c/r it (maybe not A9s but AT and AJs. I also am probably not c/ring a flush draw 3-way.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

For what it is worth, these are just my thoughts and may or may not be correct. I would think that villain perceives me to be a very strong player.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
@ Dyson
FWIW, I would bet a flush draw here if I had c/r it (maybe not A9s but AT and AJs. I also am probably not c/ring a flush draw 3-way.


[/ QUOTE ]
does he watch you play online poker or what? honestly unless he is your brother, this doesnt make a difference - he's going to put you on spades if you check the turn.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I advocate check/folding as the best line here.

True

[/ QUOTE ]

I advocate the theory that you have lost your mind.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
@ Dyson
FWIW, I would bet a flush draw here if I had c/r it (maybe not A9s but AT and AJs. I also am probably not c/ring a flush draw 3-way.


[/ QUOTE ]
does he watch you play online poker or what? honestly unless he is your brother, this doesnt make a difference - he's going to put you on spades if you check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably play 5000 hands a week with him. I disagree here strongly, I don't think that he would put me on spades at all. I think my hand to him is more like TT which he wouldn't expect to call a turn bet.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
For what it is worth, these are just my thoughts and may or may not be correct. I would think that villain perceives me to be a very strong player.

True

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't BBV. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For what it is worth, these are just my thoughts and may or may not be correct. I would think that villain perceives me to be a very strong player.

True

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't BBV. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It is quite important to the hand, no need to make a comment like this.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

you play 5k hands a week with him and you dont tell us anything about how often he would 3bet the flop with AA or AK?

so in this hand, you check raised Kxx flop with AK planning to check fold a Q turn.

he auto folds AoQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the flop? (you say if you check the turn you have TT to him so he must think you can c/r light on Kxx flops).

honestly dude, no. you're not folding this hand. especially not check folding it on the turn.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
you play 5k hands a week with him and you dont tell us anything about how often he would 3bet the flop with AA or AK?

so in this hand, you check raised Kxx flop with AK planning to check fold a Q turn.

he auto folds AoQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the flop? (you say if you check the turn you have TT to him so he must think you can c/r light on Kxx flops).

honestly dude, no. you're not folding this hand. especially not check folding it on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if he calls AQs on this flop after I c/r him+caller then he is a bad player.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

How often is he betting worse hands? I don't get your logic about his 3-betting range. The only hands you are behind in his 3bet range are QQ-AA, and KQ. You're ahead of lots others. What if he has AQ? Will he bet the turn, thinking you have 10-10 or JJ? I don't understand check-folding this turn at all. I bet the turn, and am actually torn between 3 betting or calling down if raised.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

it doesnt add up.

why would he call QQ/JJ/TT on the flop if you dont check raise flush draws 3-way like this?

what about the turn Q makes it a fold for him with JJ/TT?

1. it doesnt change your hand.
2. you dont check raise flush draws.

so pretty much, he doesnt have odds to call the flop c/r w/ two outs.

and if he's correct in calling down an underpair, peeling with AoQs cant be that bad in a pot this big.

i dont really know what else to say other than what ive already said. dont cf the turn.

btw i bet you didnt check fold (no offense True, but you're famous for your, "i took a monster to showdown but i should have made some crazy fold because i lost" posts).

Re: AK interesting turn
 

In actual fact :

I bet and he folded, when I bet I thought, I am gonna get raised here like always and he is never calling.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

so he played his underpair poorly based on your flop check raising range

ie. he should either fold the flop or call you down. the Q changes nothing.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]

I advocate the theory that you have lost your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im in this camp. Just bet/call the turn, I still like your hand, you should to. Not enough info to consider any other line.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

This is a clear turn check and I'd be calling his bet.

Luke

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
it doesnt add up.

why would he call QQ/JJ/TT on the flop if you dont check raise flush draws 3-way like this?

what about the turn Q makes it a fold for him with JJ/TT?

1. it doesnt change your hand.
2. you dont check raise flush draws.

so pretty much, he doesnt have odds to call the flop c/r w/ two outs.

and if he's correct in calling down an underpair, peeling with AoQs cant be that bad in a pot this big.

i dont really know what else to say other than what ive already said. dont cf the turn.

btw i bet you didnt check fold (no offense True, but you're famous for your, "i took a monster to showdown but i should have made some crazy fold because i lost" posts).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I can't fold this hand. I don't think another AK will 3bet this flop every time; sometimes it'll be waiting for the turn.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

A clear turn check? Come on. The guy's raising 14% of his hands, and we are ahead of a significant number of those the OP claims he would 3-bet from the button.

At least help a brother out and clarify that you at least mean Check-call, and call down. Maybe I live with that, if you bet the river if the turn is checked through.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I advocate check/folding as the best line here.

True

[/ QUOTE ]

I advocate the theory that you have lost your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't imagine any state of the universe in which check-folding here would ever be correct.

You realize you are inducing all of the hands that you beat (JJ, TT, 99, ...) to bet here by checking.

Bet the turn. If you get raised, make a decision. If you are checking it should be with the express purpose of trying to induce a bluff and calling down. I can see an argument for that kind of defensive line here, though betting is probably better.

But check-folding??? Are you mental?

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear turn check and I'd be calling his bet.

Luke

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you have a very strong reason to believe he'd bet a hand like JJ here but fold to a turn bet, we should almost never be checking here...

What has gotten into people???

Re: AK interesting turn
 

True, are you just trying to encourage discussion by saying c/f the turn? I notice you drop those type of bombs sometimes just to get people thinking. Reminds me of college professors.

FWIW, I would bet the turn, call a C/R and call down the river unless I make the straight. But then again, I stank and call down too much.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I would bet the turn, call a C/R and call down the river unless I make the straight. But then again, I stank and call down too much.


[/ QUOTE ]
both of which are impossible [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I would bet the turn, call a C/R and call down the river unless I make the straight. But then again, I stank and call down too much.


[/ QUOTE ]
both of which are impossible [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

But I did highlight the one part of my post that was possible or should I say, probable! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Sorry, I thought the 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] was the T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

And I would call a turn raise, sorry, not a c/r.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

If I posted this hand from Villains perspective and I had JJ,

How many people here would call?

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
What has gotten into people???


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What has gotten into people???


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I posted this hand from Villains perspective and I had JJ,

How many people here would call?

True

[/ QUOTE ]

Call your turn bet, or your flop c/r?

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]


But check-folding??? Are you mental?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heres my theory about True's mental health. I think he probably plays so many hands per month/per week/per day/ that he just got punch drunk on this one.

True I think its time you take a day off. Thats what I do when my mind starts playing tricks on me.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I posted this hand from Villains perspective and I had JJ,

How many people here would call?

True

[/ QUOTE ]

Call your turn bet, or your flop c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would probably fold when when UTG bets the turned Q & call the flop c/r.

even a comatose player will get frisky & start taking shots at you on scary boards if you fold to flop C/R's after 3-beting PF.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What has gotten into people???


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on guys, W. Der's "Are you mental?" was so much more deserving of a quote.

Re: AK interesting turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I posted this hand from Villains perspective and I had JJ,

How many people here would call?

True

[/ QUOTE ]

Call your turn bet, or your flop c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would probably fold when when UTG bets the turned Q & call the flop c/r.

even a comatose player will get frisky & start taking shots at you on scary boards if you fold to flop C/R's after 3-beting PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I may take the same line or just fold to the flop c/r.

I think people that advocate betting here are underestimating his calling range, and his overall range. I think we are definitely an underdog against his hand range that continues and so much so that it makes checking this turn correct.

True

Re: AK interesting turn
 

I think that check-folding is right taking into account traditional pure logic ie we are not 50% times ahead to bet-fold the turn and he is not going to bet with a weaker hand if we check.

However humans even the stronger players, make unpredictable illogical moves from time to time for a variety of reasons. It's possible he did a loose flop call, it's possible that he will bluff bet if you check, it's possible that he will call a worse hand on the turn if you bet. It's possible and sensible that he played AK this way so he can raise a non spade turn.

From all these possibilities I think him bluff betting the turn and river is the less likely so I don't think calling down to the river is profitable.

The check-fold after you C-R the flop is very risky regarding metagame since you play these games/opponents on a regular basis. And even if as I said bluffing is unlikely it can be very profitable even if he tries it with a low frequency.

So I prefer betting and taking the pot right there, block the (unlikely but costly) turn bluff and expect that he occasionally does a loose flop call that leads to a turn call (with a gutshot, lower pair etc) and sometimes he has AK or a flush draw (again less likely b/c A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] are gone)