The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

I've seen it twice in two weeks... In a Wynn tournament a week ago someone very carefully stuck his lone high denomination chip in the middle, near the bottom, of his stack of small chips of similar color before going all-in. Then tonight in a NL cash game someone announces "all-in" and shoves two stacks in... 8 red chips and 4 blue chips for $44... only wait, no, that's not 4 blue chips, it's three blues with a lone black carefully hidden on the bottom for $143. When I saw the guy shove it in I thought "he's hiding the black so he must have the nuts" and yes, he had exactly that--that's gotta be THE most surefire tell of them all. The poor guy who called that all-in tried to convince the floor he should only be liable for $44 but the floor would have none of that. And of course the guy who profited from this was offended--OFFENDED, I tell you--that the other guy accused him of intentionally hiding the black. The ass can't even admit "yeah, I hid it and you fell for it, sucker".

Seems wrong to let folks profit from such angles. It's sooo obvious to the rest of us watching what's happening, but these guys are praying on the n00bs and the inattentive. I sat quietly tonight and let this one happen. I'm not at all sure of etiquette here, but me sticking my nose in the middle and saying "hey, look out, he's hiding a black under there" doesn't seem quite right, either. And of course the dealer isn't supposed to announce the bet size unless asked. So it pretty much seems to fall to the buyer to beware.

Not sure my point. Actually one point might be that I wish NL games would prohibit unusually high denomination chips from being in play... Nobody expects a $100 chip at NL1/2 with a $200 buyin cap, and nobody expects a $500 chip at NL2/5 with a $500 buyin cap. Just be careful out there.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

The rule is if the player grossly underestimated the size of a call due to hidden chips then the call can be returned. It is every player's responsibility to keep their big chips visible or else they can lose a call this way. This just happened to me last week at Borgata when a guy had 75 in green behind and I moved in on him, when the dealer realized this he gave me my action back. At the very least when someone pushes a stack of different denominations the dealer should cut them off to clarify the bet size.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
The rule is if the player grossly underestimated the size of a call due to hidden chips then the call can be returned. It is every player's responsibility to keep their big chips visible or else they can lose a call this way. This just happened to me last week at Borgata when a guy had 75 in green behind and I moved in on him, when the dealer realized this he gave me my action back. At the very least when someone pushes a stack of different denominations the dealer should cut them off to clarify the bet size.

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This is correct except the dealer should not touch the bet unless asked to count it.

As a bettor at no limit poker you have an obligation to protect your hand until it is clear your opponant understands the size of your wager. In the example given above if he actual bet is $144, but the opponant says "call" and puts out $44 it is clear he does not understand the amount of the bet. If the first player shows his hand at teh first mention of "call" he runs the risk of the player misunderstanding the amount of the bet. Also chips that are intentional hidden can be ruled to not be in play. There are people that beleive no chip larger than the min buy-in should be permitted on the table, but I believe that not allowing players to hide their chips is enough.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a bettor at no limit poker you have an obligation to protect your hand until it is clear your opponant understands the size of your wager. In the example given above if he actual bet is $144, but the opponant says "call" and puts out $44 it is clear he does not understand the amount of the bet. If the first player shows his hand at teh first mention of "call" he runs the risk of the player misunderstanding the amount of the bet. Also chips that are intentional hidden can be ruled to not be in play. There are people that beleive no chip larger than the min buy-in should be permitted on the table, but I believe that not allowing players to hide their chips is enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alas, the caller pushed no chips. Angle shooter said "all-in" and set out two nice, neat stacks. Other guy pondered just a moment and said "I call" and then both flipped over their cards to show 2-pair vs straight. Dealer spreads out the 8 chips and says "$143" and the caller says "WHAT??? No way, man" and spends eons arguing with the dealer who repeats "too bad, you said call--you should have asked if you weren't sure". Finally the poor victim asks for the floor. I was surprised the floor didn't ask more questions. Dealer explained what happened, but with no emphasis at all on the nearly invisible black chip neatly tucked away at the bottom of the blue stack (which may have something to do with the victim being a tourist and the angle shooter being a known-by-name-by-all-the-employees regular). But he did lay the chips out showing the stack of red and the stack of blue/black, and the victim did say the black was hidden at the bottom. Floor then instantly ruled "you said call, you owe him $143" and walked off.

The problem with "not allowing players to hide their chips" is there seems to rarely be a penalty for doing so. I see similar misunderstandings where the intent of the bettor isn't so obviously devious pretty regularly. I've never seen one where the victim didn't end up paying the full price. The only thing that made the last two incidents I've witnessed odd is that it was blatantly intentional.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

wtf, putting a high-denomination chip at the bottom of your tower isn't some sneaky trick...anyone who calls and then says WTF I HAVE TO PAY SO MUCH?? is a complete moron

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

blacks don't play in the 1-2nl games around Vancouver..I like the rule

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
wtf, putting a high-denomination chip at the bottom of your tower isn't some sneaky trick...anyone who calls and then says WTF I HAVE TO PAY SO MUCH?? is a complete moron

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wtf -- yes it is. most rooms require you to keep your highest denomination chips clearly visible. Now, if a guy only has eight chips and one of them is black -- you should see that. But shoving a few blacks in the middle of a few stacks of red -- that's not kosher.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

at the bottom of a stack is cleary visible in my mind. The OP didn't say anythin about the chip being in the middle, it was at the bottom

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody expects a $100 chip at NL1/2 with a $200 buyin cap, and nobody expects a $500 chip at NL2/5 with a $500 buyin cap. Just be careful out there.

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This seems a bit of an overreaction. I color up pretty regularly in the Foxwoods $1-2 (usually after selling stacks of red to opponents to keep the game going). I prefer using fewer chips because it increases the number of hands we get for the time charge. Black chips are not outrageously uncommon for other players in that game.

The real solution is enforcement of the rules as explained here, and the problem is poor floor decisions. If the bettor pushes for $145 but makes it look like $50 by not maintaining his chip stack, and gets a call without further clarification, then the call should be for $50 all-in, period. Intent matters, but the floor doesn't need to accuse the angle shooter of angle shooting. Intentionally or unintentionally, the chip stack got into that state, and in such a state it's the bettor's responsibility to clarify the size of his bet. Period. Whether intentional or unintentional, bettor's push of a concealed chip costs him action on that chip. Better luck maintaining your chip stack next time.

Of course if it's clear that it's the caller shooting angles, not the bettor who innocently lost track of his high-denom chip, then the floor can rule in favor of the bettor.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
at the bottom of a stack is cleary visible in my mind. The OP didn't say anythin about the chip being in the middle, it was at the bottom

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Bottom of a stack of four may be visible -- bottom of a stack of twenty, it becomes difficult to distinguish. The shadows on the felt, etc. Regardless, if you are doing this for the purpose of hiding the true value of the chip (or chips), it should not be tolerated.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

meh, it might be hard, but I don't think the player should be penalised but getting some of his money taken away (effectively).

At the card rooms I've played at, I'll usually have 1-3 big chips at most...I don't like having a separate stack for them, so I just put them at the bottom of a tower. Once again, if you don't know how much you're calling, then its your fault...bottom of stack is fair game

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
meh, it might be hard, but I don't think the player should be penalised but getting some of his money taken away (effectively).

At the card rooms I've played at, I'll usually have 1-3 big chips at most...I don't like having a separate stack for them, so I just put them at the bottom of a tower. Once again, if you don't know how much you're calling, then its your fault...bottom of stack is fair game

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I think that a chip stack should be arranged so that you should be able to come up with an approximation by looking at it. Can you put your high demoniation chips on top?

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

In NL games, high denomination chips must be in plain view (on top or in front of the player's stack). If a player intentionally obscures a high denomination chip from view, I believe most floor people will rule it doesn't play in this situation. Of course, to protect yourself you should always get a count before moving all in if it matters to you.

Jeff

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

Actually, it is a dirty trick - it is a standard rule in NL that all high denomination chips must be in plain view.

Jeff

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually one point might be that I wish NL games would prohibit unusually high denomination chips from being in play... Nobody expects a $100 chip at NL1/2 with a $200 buyin cap, and nobody expects a $500 chip at NL2/5 with a $500 buyin cap. Just be careful out there.

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I've had both, but I've never been accused of douchebaggery, because I don't hide the chips.

Be careful out there. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

I sat down to deal a 5-5 NL game the other day. One player had a stack of green completely walled off behind a bunch of red stacks. He was messing around with his chips though and so gave him a hand or two to make them visible but, when he didn’t, I politely told him that he had to pull the green out so that it was visible to the table. The guy acted like this was the craziest thing he’d ever heard. WTF? Even if he’d never heard of this rule (slightly surprising at a 5-5 NL) it’s not that hard to understand.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was surprised the floor didn't ask more questions. Dealer explained what happened, but with no emphasis at all on the nearly invisible black chip neatly tucked away at the bottom of the blue stack (which may have something to do with the victim being a tourist and the angle shooter being a known-by-name-by-all-the-employees regular). But he did lay the chips out showing the stack of red and the stack of blue/black, and the victim did say the black was hidden at the bottom. Floor then instantly ruled "you said call, you owe him $143" and walked off.

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This is the problem. The floorman doesn't truly understand the issues, so he makes a ruling based on what he understands the issue to be. The floorperson has a responsibility to protect the integrity of the game, this floorperson failed in this reguard.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

meh, I guess all the card rooms I've been at suck, as I've never been told not to put my chips on the bottom, but obviously not in the back. The problem I have with putting them on top is I never know which stack I'll use to bet with...so I don't want my high chips on the top.

Oh well, I guess I'm overruled and the bottom is considered dirty...good to know

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

This is why, when facing an all-in bet, I always ask the dealer to count it, regardless of whether or not I already know my decision. If I don't plan to call it at least gives the impression that I had a decision. If I am insta-calling, it ensures I know exactly how much I am calling and foils the hidden big chip trick.

Well, if I have the stone cold nuts on the river, I won't be a douche because at that point I don't care what the bet size is.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
meh, I guess all the card rooms I've been at suck, as I've never been told not to put my chips on the bottom, but obviously not in the back. The problem I have with putting them on top is I never know which stack I'll use to bet with...so I don't want my high chips on the top.

Oh well, I guess I'm overruled and the bottom is considered dirty...good to know

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say the bottom is ok, if it is clear (that is if you have multiple large chips they will be clear if they are underneath, if you have some stacks of chips and a single large chip put it on top, not in a stack but on top of your chips, that way you can just push it out of the way whenyou grab a stack to bet) . Behind your chips is never ok. A lot can depend on the chips being used in the casino, some casinos have chips that are too close together in colot etc. There is also an issue with all the artwork casinos put on the tables these days, often chips can get lost in that.

In the example of the OP $144 is a small enough amount (unless it is being played with all $1 chips) that the chips should be moved. Saying "all-in" without moving the chips is ok if there are so many that it is hard to move them, but putting them out into the center makes the bet amount clearer (if nothing else the chips are closer so everyone can see them better).

It has been a long time since I have given this any serious thought, but the people that say that large denomination chips shouldn't be allowed on the table might be right (even though I said the opposite above). I have never really seen the hiding chips as an issue, but I actively walk the floor and have told players that have the view of there larger chips obstructed that they need to make their chip stacks clear.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

stuff like this drives me nuts. whats worse is that i often try to do something about it by asking the guy nicely to put his high denomination chip in the front where its supposed to be to avoid having a situation like this happen at the table. sometimes ill get a comment like "who made you table captain?" same thing happens when i see people buyin to a game for more than the max and point it out to the dealer. i get a "mind your business" remark. sorry for keeping the games legitimate and protecting the fish.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I have with putting them on top is I never know which stack I'll use to bet with...so I don't want my high chips on the top.

Oh well, I guess I'm overruled and the bottom is considered dirty...good to know

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that having them on the bottom is dirty; it's that doing it in such a way to obscure the size of your bet or raise is dirty.

If you keep your primary playing chips (e.g. $5 at most small stakes NL) in stacks of 20, which is pretty standard, you're probably going to have another stack of odd chips, say 1s, 25s, and 100s. If you prefer to keep a stack of 6 quarters and 14 nickels (in FRONT) or whatever, fine -- if your opponent needs a precise count they can ask for it. Just make sure, when you push all-in, that you separate them out by denom so that your opponent sees the amount clearly.

You don't have to advertise your high-denom chips, but you do have to keep them in plain view, not hidden. That's all. Since you're not shooting angles, there shouldn't be a problem.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

At the WSOP last year they were constantly reminding players to keep high denomination chips in plain view. They do not consider the bottom of a stack plain view.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

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[ QUOTE ]
As a bettor at no limit poker you have an obligation to protect your hand until it is clear your opponant understands the size of your wager. In the example given above if he actual bet is $144, but the opponant says "call" and puts out $44 it is clear he does not understand the amount of the bet. If the first player shows his hand at teh first mention of "call" he runs the risk of the player misunderstanding the amount of the bet. Also chips that are intentional hidden can be ruled to not be in play. There are people that beleive no chip larger than the min buy-in should be permitted on the table, but I believe that not allowing players to hide their chips is enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alas, the caller pushed no chips. Angle shooter said "all-in" and set out two nice, neat stacks. Other guy pondered just a moment and said "I call" and then both flipped over their cards to show 2-pair vs straight. Dealer spreads out the 8 chips and says "$143" and the caller says "WHAT??? No way, man" and spends eons arguing with the dealer who repeats "too bad, you said call--you should have asked if you weren't sure". Finally the poor victim asks for the floor. I was surprised the floor didn't ask more questions. Dealer explained what happened, but with no emphasis at all on the nearly invisible black chip neatly tucked away at the bottom of the blue stack (which may have something to do with the victim being a tourist and the angle shooter being a known-by-name-by-all-the-employees regular). But he did lay the chips out showing the stack of red and the stack of blue/black, and the victim did say the black was hidden at the bottom. Floor then instantly ruled "you said call, you owe him $143" and walked off.

The problem with "not allowing players to hide their chips" is there seems to rarely be a penalty for doing so. I see similar misunderstandings where the intent of the bettor isn't so obviously devious pretty regularly. I've never seen one where the victim didn't end up paying the full price. The only thing that made the last two incidents I've witnessed odd is that it was blatantly intentional.

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there is no victim here. The player who lost SHOULD'VE clarified how much he needed to call before doing anything.

What idiot doesn't make sure how much a bet is before calling? Whoever does do this, I gurantee, only does it once.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
What idiot doesn't make sure how much a bet is before calling? Whoever does do this, I gurantee, only does it once.

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Yes, he's a victim of an angle shooter. Hiding your chips ain't kosher.

Here you are playing what seems to be a happy, friendly NL1/2 game. The guy one away from you says "all-in" and puts out two nice, neat stacks. Both are obviously 4 chips high. One seems to have all red. The other seems to have all blue. You can't see there's a black at the bottom of the blues without either touching his chips, or putting your head fairly close to the stack, or asking. One doesn't have to be an idiot to fall for this. We're not playing NL10/25 here.

I've been surprised to find out after I was well into a hand that my opponent had a couple blacks hidden, and I found myself wishing I hadn't played quite the way I did. I don't recall ever saying "call" to an all-in and being surprised by what I hadda cough up, but I'm not so silly as to think it couldn't happen to me, though. I could see being tired or distracted and being surprised by such a thing.

Let's think back a couple weeks to a hand involving a 2+2er. $100 pot at the river, his opponent says "jacks". 2+2er flashes a ten that made a pair of tens and mucks. Guy who said "jacks" tosses his cards to the dealer face down. 2+2er says "well can I at least see the jacks?" The cards are turned over and there are no jacks there. What kinda IDIOT falls for that? Well... all of us, eventually. We just aren't always on constant guard against such things.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

only a hustling cheat would be so harsh. to punish an "idiot" for makign a mistake unintentionally, but letting the real culprit go unpunished is just encouraging cheats and foul play. maybe if there was zero tolerance for angleshots, these hustlers would stop doing them. casinos be damned -- if this happened in my home game and i was convinced it was an angle shoot, not even the $44 gets called, and the "idiot" gets his money back.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

I remember this one dude pulled this trick in a tourney. He open raised with AA by putting out a small stack of T25 chips. On the bottom of this stack lay a lonely T1000 chip. The bettor acted like he did it on accident.. Calls the floor over.. Floor rules the bet stands.. Some dude with TT moves all in and gets called, Oopsy Double up!

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

Now I'm curious. If I'm at the 1-2, I have my stacks of reds [$5] in 20's, then any loose extra reds in my "betting stack" to one side along with my whites, and any greens and blacks in a separate stack, usually on top of my red 20 stacks. But I have the blacks below the greens. Is this hiding since they're at the bottom of one stack, but on top of others? [pyramid style]. It's never been a problem that I know of, and I always announce the amount when I bet all-in so people know what I have. I just want to make sure I haven't been hiding chips without realizing it.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

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If you keep your primary playing chips (e.g. $5 at most small stakes NL) in stacks of 20, which is pretty standard, you're probably going to have another stack of odd chips, say 1s, 25s, and 100s

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In the 2-5 game this SAT I had 2 stacks of red (20 each) and 7-8 (3 black, 2 green and couple of whites) chips right besides them in plain view. I raised to 150 using my red chips and some dude pushed all in. After losing the hand he claimed that when i pushed 150 in front of my cards using reds i obstracted his view of my black chips...floor had none of that. Also in the hand played in one of now closed NY clubs i saw an idiot pushing his stack of about 5k as a bluff thinking that the other guy had about 500 in front of him. Well that 500 was sitting on top of 5k of cash...according to the rule of that room cash played... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now I'm curious. If I'm at the 1-2, I have my stacks of reds [$5] in 20's, then any loose extra reds in my "betting stack" to one side along with my whites, and any greens and blacks in a separate stack, usually on top of my red 20 stacks. But I have the blacks below the greens. Is this hiding since they're at the bottom of one stack, but on top of others? [pyramid style]. It's never been a problem that I know of, and I always announce the amount when I bet all-in so people know what I have. I just want to make sure I haven't been hiding chips without realizing it.

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It's called "barber poling" (striped stacks). Some places have explicit rules against it. If the dealer never says anything, I would assume you are OK. It certainly doesn't seem like you're trying to hide them to me.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

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at the bottom of a stack is cleary visible in my mind. The OP didn't say anythin about the chip being in the middle, it was at the bottom

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In the context of the OP's post, the chip was hidden. It was a single black chip at the botton of a small stack of blue. Clearly that was hidden and the floor made an incorrect ruling.

The rule is simple and keeping your high denomination chips visible is an easy thing to do.

Regards,

T

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have my stacks of reds [$5] in 20's, then any loose extra reds in my "betting stack" to one side along with my whites, and any greens and blacks in a separate stack, usually on top of my red 20 stacks. But I have the blacks below the greens. Is this hiding since they're at the bottom of one stack, but on top of others? [pyramid style].

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No it is clear that those chips are separate. When chips are seperated like that it is clear they need to be looked at closely. In another post I tired to describe the best way to stack your chips, you have done it much better then did.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have my stacks of reds [$5] in 20's, then any loose extra reds in my "betting stack" to one side along with my whites, and any greens and blacks in a separate stack, usually on top of my red 20 stacks. But I have the blacks below the greens. Is this hiding since they're at the bottom of one stack, but on top of others? [pyramid style].

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No it is clear that those chips are separate. When chips are seperated like that it is clear they need to be looked at closely. In another post I tired to describe the best way to stack your chips, you have done it much better then did.

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Once again, Randy hits the mark. I completely agree. Long as there is a separate and visible stack of odd denominations, it points out to any would-be opponent that there is more there than just reds and he should verify it before committing.

Mind you, a floor or dealer or another player may grump at you someday about it. Whatever. I think >9 out of 10 of us will be very happy with your chip arrangement.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

While OP was at the table, my "spidey senses" on this one tingle that it is the caller and not the bettor who is shooting the angle. Once he saw that he was badly beat, he began to look for an out. As an aside, what kind of player doesn't have enough of a problem calling an all in with two pair against a possible straight to ask for a count, if for no other reason than to give herself time to think through the possibilities?

In any event, as a converting from limit, relatively new NL player, I REALLY appreciate all these discussions on dirty tricks -- permitted or otherwise.

I kind of admire the guys who try and trap the "rules nits" by making a binding action and then attempting to take it back. In addition to the "inadvertant" overbet mentioned here, there was a thread about a year ago on a guy who pushed his stack forward, but behind the line and then announced, "I check." Two players forced him to bet all in as forward motion was binding. They both then quickly called, but were not so happy when the forced bettor flipped AA.

The rules nits, especially when they are trying to take advantage of an infraction, deserve to be totally cleaned out. IMO.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What idiot doesn't make sure how much a bet is before calling? Whoever does do this, I gurantee, only does it once.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he's a victim of an angle shooter. Hiding your chips ain't kosher.

Here you are playing what seems to be a happy, friendly NL1/2 game. The guy one away from you says "all-in" and puts out two nice, neat stacks. Both are obviously 4 chips high. One seems to have all red. The other seems to have all blue. You can't see there's a black at the bottom of the blues without either touching his chips, or putting your head fairly close to the stack, or asking. One doesn't have to be an idiot to fall for this. We're not playing NL10/25 here.

I've been surprised to find out after I was well into a hand that my opponent had a couple blacks hidden, and I found myself wishing I hadn't played quite the way I did. I don't recall ever saying "call" to an all-in and being surprised by what I hadda cough up, but I'm not so silly as to think it couldn't happen to me, though. I could see being tired or distracted and being surprised by such a thing.

Let's think back a couple weeks to a hand involving a 2+2er. $100 pot at the river, his opponent says "jacks". 2+2er flashes a ten that made a pair of tens and mucks. Guy who said "jacks" tosses his cards to the dealer face down. 2+2er says "well can I at least see the jacks?" The cards are turned over and there are no jacks there. What kinda IDIOT falls for that? Well... all of us, eventually. We just aren't always on constant guard against such things.

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in both your examples, the "victims" only have themselves to blame. Although, the guy who said Jacks is a cheating bastard.

The other guy who put his stacks in the middle of the table - exactly how is he supossed to do this? Should he announce the mount? Should he let everyone know there's a big chip in one stack, what?

He did nothing wrong.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
While OP was at the table, my "spidey senses" on this one tingle that it is the caller and not the bettor who is shooting the angle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a chance. Not the slightest chance. When the angle shooter sat down I knew he was intending to do this. I could see it coming 30 minutes before it happened from the way he bought in with a black chip and quietly dropped another black on the table when he got the stack of reds. And I could definitely see it as the bet went out--the stacks were ever so carefully slid out, very neatly, keeping the black from ever showing more than an edge-on view.

I'm still not sure I shouldn't have spoken up. But if the floorperson had ruled correctly (according to Randy) the caller should only have been on the hook for $44, while if the caller had won he would have picked up $143. So my speaking up would have potentially cost the guy $99 of freeroll money. That particular thought makes me feel better about staying mute.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

[ QUOTE ]
The other guy who put his stacks in the middle of the table - exactly how is he supossed to do this? Should he announce the mount? Should he let everyone know there's a big chip in one stack, what?

He did nothing wrong.

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YES! EXACTLY that. Either announce the amount of the bet, or separate out the black so it's clear it's there. duh. When you put the chips in nice neat stacks of 4 or 5, there is an implication that they are all the same color. If you've played poker for 10 years you know to be careful. If you're 22yo and are visiting Vegas for the first time and are playing in the smallest NL game you can find, you shouldn't be subjected to this kinda crap.

Guess we're just going to have to disagree on this one. I think the guy is a cheating bastard and I'm not gonna be unconvinced of it. I saw it happen. I'm positive it was intentional. I don't think he should get to profit by hiding the size of his bet.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

Here's a story from the Wynn about 10 days ago.

Sitting at the 1-3 NL game, a strong player 2 to my left has about 3K in front of him. A seemingly loose ad crazy player immediately to my left sat down earlier with about 300, and was down to about $45 or so. I saw him reach into his pocket and pull out a 500 chip and 2 100 chips, and put them in play between hands. My first instinct was that I was the only one who noticed this, and that he was possibly making a move on the guy to his right. Sure enough, a couple of hands later, this came up:

Multiway unraised pot, flop 448 rainbow. Both of these players are in the hand, 3 chip bet on the flop ($9) and a call. Turn comes blankish, and the big stack bets about 30 this time, and a call. The angle-shooter has about 6 $3 chips left, and a 500 and 2 100s hidden at the bottom of that stack. The river comes a third 4, and the bigstack says "uh, I'll just put you all in..." and the angle-shooter immediately calls and throws in 700 and change. Right away, the table is in shock, as they had no idea he was so deep, and the bigstack is a bit surprised as well, and he says "well, that's OK, I put you all in anyway..." and rolls over the case 4 for quads.

I suspect the angle-shooter had 88 for the flopped boat, but who knows.

We all agreed it served him right for hiding the big chips.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

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I think the guy is a cheating bastard and I'm not gonna be unconvinced of it. I saw it happen. I'm positive it was intentional. I don't think he should get to profit by hiding the size of his bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key to being able to rule on these matters. You can get a good feel for if the guy was intentionally hiding the chip etc. This is much harder to get a feel for from a description online.

Re: The ol\' hidden high denomination chip trick
 

I started a response to your response to me, then trashed it.

Basically, I feel that you should have outed the guy when you saw it starting up.

And also that the floor and the dealer made the wrong rulings and also it is possible that all three were in on it (not so much overtly in the case of the floor and dealer, but in the sense that A/S might be a good tipper, etc.).

Maybe you should even now take it up with the management of the room and think about changing rooms if they don't do anything about it.

One thing as players that we need to communicate with management clearly on is that cheating will not be tolerated. If we feel something is cheating, we owe it to the community to bring to the attention of management and to impose sanctions if management does not address the situation promptly and fairly. Vote with your feet.