First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

This is a hand from last night's $11 Single Rebuy/Add on Tourney and is the first hand a the final table. I had not played vs the villain all night but know that he is a fairly well known player from P5s (GB2005.) I am sure he does not know me at all.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t16000 (9 handed) converter

MP3 (t459088)
Hero (t476138)
Button (t278917)
SB (t127624)
BB (t133042)
UTG (t150334)
UTG+1 (t259557)
MP1 (t117710)
MP2 (t230090)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t48000</font>, Hero calls t48000, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t102400) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t64000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t410288</font>, Hero ???

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

*Slips into skirt*

Fold this one. Even after dropping 100k, you're at twice the stack of most of the table. Granted he is probably capable of this with AK (or air for that matter), but there are way too many hands that beat you here.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

I'd call this pretty quickly. If he has JJ+ he wants to get paid off right? Leading out will get him more money against pocket pairs. This line for him indicates that he is maximizing folding equity. I don't beleive him, and I'd definitely look him up here.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

I would, too. This isn't JJ or 99, so he's got one of three big pairs, AK/AQs, or not much at all. He can also definitely have a 9 which gives him &lt; 6 outs. I think this is a call.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

You know this is a really, really good question for those of us with limited FT experience.

First of all, I think I reraise preflop and see what goes down. My guess is he's on a blind steal and lays it down. But since you're here I'm asking myself does a better player than me (which is most) raise all in at the final table with a made hand or is he not wanting you to call?

I think his preflop range is just about any two for a steal. I think if he has pocket nines, he slow plays. If he has A2, an all in move is certainly a possibility.

I'm gonna call this cuz I want to cripple the biggest stack and end up with a HUGE chip lead myself. If he has JJ - AA or the deuce, well shucks.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

Yeah, without reads, I can't find a fold here. It seems that this kind of massive overbet is a made hand a small % of the time. I'd think overs and/or a diamond draw, though I'd have bet out with either of those holdings. Bleh, a call at any rate.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

I would like to reraise preflop, but the stack sizes are not good for it. A push is too big an overbet. Make a smaller reraise and what do oudo if he pushes.

I might checkraise the flop, but you get less information than the way you played it.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

I close my eyes, hold my breath, and shove my chips in. You are probably ahead, but it really stinks when he flips over a higher pocket pair. This is a spot I need to work on in my game and I am curious to read all the posts. How did the hand turn out?

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I might checkraise the flop

[/ QUOTE ] hero is in position


i go broke here and call it, doenst look like a real hand, more like a draw trying to maximise FE

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

I think you are seeing him playing back with 2 diamonds more times than not here. Maybe A9.
~Justin

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

I think he'd make a continuation bet on the flop if he had TPTK since there's two diamonds. The check-raise claims he has at least one 2 or 99. I'd fold.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

Call here every time. In my experience this is almost never an overpair. If he sees you as a tight player, he would be too afraid of scaring you off by checkraising all in. Overpair almost always leads out here for value/hand protection. Most often you will see overcards + flush draw pulling this move. It could also be a bluff with overcards if he thinks you are tight and thinks you can laydown a mid pocket pair.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think he'd make a continuation bet on the flop if he had TPTK since there's two diamonds. The check-raise claims he has at least one 2 or 99. I'd fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting him soley on 99 or a two is just plain ridiculous given the action so far. What hands does he open raise from MP with that include a two? 99 is possible here, but it's unlikely he would play 99 this fast on this board, for fear of scaring hero off. What hero would be most afraid of here is an overpair to his hand.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think he'd make a continuation bet on the flop if he had TPTK since there's two diamonds. The check-raise claims he has at least one 2 or 99. I'd fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you go by that argument, you should fold AA here too.

Are you folding AA here?

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

A couple of questions for those advocating a call:

I understand that this looks a lot like a draw, but don't you find it unusual that the villain is playing an unmade hand this fast vs. an unkown player that can bust him when the third place stack is so much shorter?

Given the fact that I should be able to abuse the smaller stacks to my left even if I fold, what kind of edge do I need to call here? What would be a good weighted hand range to use to calculate my equity?

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

You're dead against A2, bigger pockets or a set. You're vastly ahead of A9, a smaller PP or a total steal. Against two diamond overs, which is what I would want to have making this move, you're in a coin flip:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1425163
pokenum -h th tc - ad jd -- 2d 9d 2c
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 2c 9d 2d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Tc Th 508 51.31 482 48.69 0 0.00 0.513
Ad Jd 482 48.69 508 51.31 0 0.00 0.487</pre><hr />Villain may be tricky but he cannot be stupid. To risk his stack against the one player who can knock him out there has to be a reason. I fold here. I don't even know if I call KNOWING it's a coin flip to be honest since I can't help but feel there will be much better edges to come with my still-sizable stack.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

I'm probably not good enough to fold any over pair here. I probably call in real life, but this board is about 20/20 hindsight.

My initial reaction was to call; but after thinking through the villians' line- that if he had TPTK or an overpair, with the flush draw on board, and a large stack, and him messing with the other big stack, he's got to have a 9 or at least one 2.

He could be stealing on the first hand of the FT; it's folded around to him, people usually play tight right away at the FT until they see who's who and what's what. He might have A2s or even 23o if he's on a steal, since it's easier to lay down a steal with fecal matter. Maybe he wants to be seen as the aggressor at the FT. Maybe that's why he's all in here- he's saying don't F with me everyone or I'll put you all in and make you make a decision for all your chips- but I doubt that he'd do that with the other big stack.

But if he had a big pair or a set, and he hit the flop which contains two flush cards, he's going to want to take down the pot now instead of letting another flush card come. He might also want to take the pot down now with Ad Kd - he's putting you on an overpair or smaller ace and doesn't want to have to hit his flush or his overcards.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

IMO, given the stack sizes of you and villain relative to remaining players, there is an argument for a pre-flop fold. Having said that, I would call pre-flop for the obv set value. Against this player, I check the flop. For the reason that I do not want to make a decision for all my chips with 10/10. THe texture of the flop is very good for your hand and a brick turn would improve your holdings and reduce the likelihood that you see major action on 4th. If you do, you can decide where you are then.

Further, if you are up against AK/KQ (not suited diamonds), you are way ahead, and against AKd with brick turns and rivers you can get full value here.

FWIW, I play QQ/KK/AA exactly the way you see the villain's action. I might also play AKd this way. I may just call with a set. All depends on my read on you.

I believe you are facing a very strong hand here. At minimum, a flush draw with over cards has you 51.3/48.7. You are a 10/90 dog to every likely holding. The only hand you are heavy favorite to is an underpair. I very rarely see a good player, with a major chip advantage at a full final table, risk all his chips against the other large stack unless he has the goods.

I would fold to his allin.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

looks more like stubborn AK AQ than anything else to me

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

why not reraise before flop? See where you are at. I think you played the tens to weak.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

Imagine how much easier this hand would have been to play had your postflop bet had been a preflop reraise...

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

I like a reraise to about 125k preflop, if you think you can take it down.
I even like a check behind on the flop, for this exact situation. Sure you're not happy if an overcard comes on the turn but it's better than being faced with a tough decision for so much of your stack when you're in good shape.
I tend to play much more passively when I'm against another big stack late. I'd rather keep the pot small.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would, too. This isn't JJ or 99, so he's got one of three big pairs, AK/AQs, or not much at all. He can also definitely have a 9 which gives him &lt; 6 outs. I think this is a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why isn't this JJ who wants to increase his stack by 25% without letting the Hero see a turn?

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like a reraise to about 125k preflop, if you think you can take it down.
I even like a check behind on the flop, for this exact situation. Sure you're not happy if an overcard comes on the turn but it's better than being faced with a tough decision for so much of your stack when you're in good shape.
I tend to play much more passively when I'm against another big stack late. I'd rather keep the pot small.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this situation, I would not want a big pot with the other big stack, since I think doubling up less than doubles $EV.

If there were 40 players left, I would welcome that kind of confrontation, as I would be looking to double up and make a huge stack to win the tournament.

Playing passively does not necessarily keep the pot small, particularly when the blinds are as large as they are at this point.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

if he didnt want hero to see the turn, he wouldn't have checked the flop.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

Tough spot to be in. But I never presume anybody at a final table knows what the hell they are doing until I have played no less than 30 hands with them. Here's why:

Notice I am in the BB. This FT was wacko from the onset. I ended up 2nd.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t40000 (7 handed) converter

Hero (t1361262)
UTG (t1449182)
MP1 (t845918)
MP2 (t945930)
CO (t569804)
Button (t1298096)
SB (t1711308)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t143918</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t450000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t843918</font>, Hero calls t393918.

Flop: (t1697836) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t1697836) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t1697836) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1697836

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Qd Qs (three of a kind, queens).
MP1 has Jh 4h (straight, ace high).
Outcome: MP1 wins t1697836. </font>

And this donkey went on to win the tournament and 5k+
I may have nightmares about this hand for ages.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call this pretty quickly. If he has JJ+ he wants to get paid off right? Leading out will get him more money against pocket pairs. This line for him indicates that he is maximizing folding equity. I don't beleive him, and I'd definitely look him up here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone in this thread thinks this is an easy call with TT, and I think most people would agree that it is still a call with a medium pair below 99. So it seems like this line is getting money in against pocket pairs. At a final table of a large field tourney, even without knowing who hero is, he may assume that hero's coldcalling range is fairly narrow and consists mainly of pocket pairs and biggish aces. 30xBB is not huge, so there's not a lot of room to be making more marginal calls, even with position.

If DE was playing under his normal Stars screen name, I would think it's possible that GB2005 knew he was decent (a lot of times recognizing a name from looking at tourney results is enough).

Shaniac said in some post that strange plays usually inspire people to make marginal calls more than heroic folds. Judging by the responses in this thread, we should probably be making plays like this with huge hands more often than we normally would against the better players.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing passively does not necessarily keep the pot small, particularly when the blinds are as large as they are at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps not, but checking behind will get you that much closer to the end of the hand, it does help control pot size, and it also ensures you can't be check-raised all in and put to the decision that hero now finds himself having to make.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

Is folding BTF too weak tight?

Hero gets a "dream" flop and still can't confidently play
from the flop.

Bruce

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is folding BTF too weak tight?

Hero gets a "dream" flop and still can't confidently play
from the flop.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is too weak/tight.

This is not a dream flop. A dream flop would be AT4 or KQT.

Just reraise preflop. It is liekely villain was stealing preflop and doesn't want a confrontation with a big stack and will fold to the reraise.

If you really want to simplify things, push preflop. It is unlikely the CO raise from the chip leader is JJ-AA. A reasonable size reraise pretty much pot commits you. The push might be misread as AK/AQ. You have position and a push is an overbet, but it is better than folding.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're dead against A2, bigger pockets or a set. You're vastly ahead of A9, a smaller PP or a total steal. Against two diamond overs, which is what I would want to have making this move, you're in a coin flip:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1425163
pokenum -h th tc - ad jd -- 2d 9d 2c
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 2c 9d 2d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Tc Th 508 51.31 482 48.69 0 0.00 0.513
Ad Jd 482 48.69 508 51.31 0 0.00 0.487</pre><hr />Villain may be tricky but he cannot be stupid. To risk his stack against the one player who can knock him out there has to be a reason. I fold here. I don't even know if I call KNOWING it's a coin flip to be honest since I can't help but feel there will be much better edges to come with my still-sizable stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I knew this hand would be a coinflip, even with all the dead money in the pot, I'd have to advocate a fold.

And yes, I realize playing for first in MTTs is usually superior, but folding still leaves us with the 2nd chip stack.

BTW, I don't really consider myself to be in the accumulator camp OR the survivalist camp. Rather, I'm all about maximizing my $EV in any tournament, and folding here seems to be best unless you consider him likely to be on missed overcards.

Just out of curiosity, what was the payout structure for this tournament? I'd love to see an ICM-type analysis of the minimum percentage edge you'd need in order to call the check-raise on the flop. I venture that it is much higher than 50%, even with all the dead money.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of questions for those advocating a call:

I understand that this looks a lot like a draw, but don't you find it unusual that the villain is playing an unmade hand this fast vs. an unkown player that can bust him when the third place stack is so much shorter?

Given the fact that I should be able to abuse the smaller stacks to my left even if I fold, what kind of edge do I need to call here? What would be a good weighted hand range to use to calculate my equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, I also liked your position because you have a shot to bust this guy if he's speeding. IMO his hand range, based on what I would do this with, is mostly overs. AK/AQ/KQ, all big diamond draws. If this guy is really good, though, with AA/KK/99/any duece, though...he probably checks the flop too. If he had you beat I really like his line.

that said I probably would have clicked call before even thinking it through.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

What happened on this hand?

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're dead against A2, bigger pockets or a set. You're vastly ahead of A9, a smaller PP or a total steal. Against two diamond overs, which is what I would want to have making this move, you're in a coin flip:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1425163
pokenum -h th tc - ad jd -- 2d 9d 2c
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 2c 9d 2d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Tc Th 508 51.31 482 48.69 0 0.00 0.513
Ad Jd 482 48.69 508 51.31 0 0.00 0.487</pre><hr />Villain may be tricky but he cannot be stupid. To risk his stack against the one player who can knock him out there has to be a reason. I fold here. I don't even know if I call KNOWING it's a coin flip to be honest since I can't help but feel there will be much better edges to come with my still-sizable stack.

[/ QUOTE ] To risk his stack against the one player who can knock him out there has to be a reason

I see alot of reasons. Most important; this is a keyhand.
The one who wins it will have control over the table and probably win the turny.
As villian I would do this with any 2 thinking its just a matter of who gets all the chips in first.
Fold TT?! jesus... not without a solid read, baby.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think he'd make a continuation bet on the flop if he had TPTK since there's two diamonds. The check-raise claims he has at least one 2 or 99. I'd fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are totally discounting quads?!?! what about 5 aces?



hang on....



http://www.robynspizman.com/assets/i...derTheBed2.jpg

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

he really looks like he's trying to structure it to have max FE w/ the lack of the c-bet. He knows that you are in a tough spot here w/ out a duece or an overpair (he probably doesn't think that you are laying down even TT). Additionally, it's really hard for him to see you calling a raise w/ a duece or not reraising w/ an overpair.

I think that he can be doing this w/ an underpair, some sort of 9 (A9-89), probably JJ protecting against overcards, AK/AQ or two diamonds semibluffing. Even if you discount all these combos by half, they still outweigh all the times he has 99-AA (or A2).

Shove it and don't post bad beats.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
The one who wins it will have control over the table and probably win the turny.

[/ QUOTE ]The one who loses it will be out and he can easily win this tournament by escaping intact.

This begs the question: If you knew it was a coin toss (two diamond overs) do you call here? Your response tells me that you would.

Re: Results
 

My initial reaction was to call, but then I started to think about the hands a reasonable player could be playing this way. Obviously I had no time to do the math, but it just seemed as if the made hands that I was ahead of would have been leading on this flop, and the most probable holdings for him were the big diamond draws and better pairs.

I ended up taking most of my time clock before zipping up the puss suit and folding. Part of my reasoning was that I thought I could use my position to steal a bunch while the shorter stacks waited to move up. Villain did not show his hand, but said in chat "If you had JJ you should be broke right now". I was able to chip back up pretty easily, and villain played fairly solidly the rest of the way - we ended up HU for 86 hands, where I was able to come back from a 10-1 chip lead and nab second place....

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]

This begs the question: If you knew it was a coin toss (two diamond overs) do you call here? Your response tells me that you would.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. It depends on how bloodthirsty I am at the moment.

Re: First hand at the Final Table - Clash of the Big Stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]

Shove it and don't post bad beats.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't you be over in Other Other Topics giving advice on how to bang MySpace chicks or something?