Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

Two from this past weekend. Both villans were loose and somewhat passive.

Pacific Poker 25c/50c 8 handed

Hero is SB with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG folds,UTG+1 calls, MP calls, MP+1 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Checked through.

Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets, 2 folds, MP calls,MP+1 folds.

River 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, MP bets, hero calls




Pacific poker 25c/50c 5 handed.

Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets, UTG calls

Turn T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets,UTG calls

River 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

Any general thoughts on what line to take? I bet the river in the second hand due to only really fearing two hearts. With the jack I C/C.

Another question, should I lead out in hand one?

Thanks.

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

I like your line in hand one, but I'd check call w/ the flush Q in the second hand.

I'd like to hear other opinions though. I like the rest of your streets.

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

You should've bet on the flop 1st hand when you had all the pot odds in the world.

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

I don't bet the non-nut flush in first position here. You're asking to be raised and at this point you'd like to make your hand first against only 3 players. Plus, if it's bet and raised before it gets back to you, you can save your bets and fold since your odds have trickled away.

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

Would have bet the flop in the first hand. You're in late position with plenty of outs for the flush draw so I would try to win this quickly

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

Hero is in early position on both hands according to my view as him being sb and bb respectively.

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

oops *rubs his eyes wearily*

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

bet the flop in hand one.
i think hand 2 is ok. (you should sotp the action at your bet - obviously when you get raised everyone will now say check/call)

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

Tilt-Can you give me more info about why to bet hand one in bad position against three villains.

I've seen you post far more than I here so perhaps I'm not doing something I should. I'm just thinking we don't want to get into a situation to make a worse flush than someone else in bad position.

I'm not good with running pot equity numbers and such. My computer can't handle PT yet.

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tilt-Can you give me more info about why to bet hand one in bad position against three villains.

I've seen you post far more than I here so perhaps I'm not doing something I should. I'm just thinking we don't want to get into a situation to make a worse flush than someone else in bad position.

I'm not good with running pot equity numbers and such. My computer can't handle PT yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think you should worry about making a worse flush, in general, when you are holding 2 suited cards in your hand. it is just too rare.

that said, in this case i thought there were 4 villains. i'm pretty sure that at least 2 of them could call my bet. and if they fold, thats good too.

if you aren't comfortable figuring out the equity you have with a flush draw (and you should figure it out because it's important) one can go by a general rule of thumb that if more than 2 people will call, it is good to bet when you have a 4 flush. this is because you flush will arrive about 35% of the time.

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

Thanks. I'm obviously missing some value on my flushes here.

Any difference if the board is paired as well as two of my suit? Still bet, or more likely to check there?

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. I'm obviously missing some value on my flushes here.

Any difference if the board is paired as well as two of my suit? Still bet, or more likely to check there?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd still bet, in general, though a paired board will tend to make people fold more and on a paired board i'd view that as a good thing.

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

[/ QUOTE ]
i'd still bet, in general, though a paired board will tend to make people fold more

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I'd rather take this pot down now than have to hit my 35%er.

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

Tilt,
What would you do if you bet your four flush on a normal or paired flop from EP and 2 players call and then you miss your flush on the turn? Bet again and call if raised? What if only 1 player calls the flop bet?

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

I can only be reasonably beat by a better flush with that board, as the board is rags and two pair with full draw is unlikely

As for the better flush, there are 3 diamond cards higher than our J (which could make a better flush) and 6 diamond cards lower (which would make a worse flush)
Even after you account for the fact that face cards are played more often it doesn't give you anything less than 50% that your flush will be best, and again that's only if you believe there's another flush draw around (which is something like 20-25% I believe)

All that doesn't make the pot odds a lot worse, so I'd want to cap that flop anyway, as raises/reraises would only indicate Q pairs with high kickers to me

Actually the only thing I'm not sure about is whether raising will drive out some random Ad who can otherwise see a diamond on the turn and stick around threatening a better flush or this will only make his pot odds better for calling your turn bets

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

I'm not tilt but I can offer my 2 cents as well

on a paired flop I'd bet again (if pot odds better than my flush draw)
if raised I'd fold if and only if there's a paired flop and I believe the villain got his full from the turn (meaning the pair and the turn card are not random rags), and call otherwise

Re: Best line for non-nut flush on four flush board?
 

Grunch

Hand one: bet flop against 7 people only need a few callers to make this profitable . . . you have flush draw and BDSD

I play the rest the same.

Hand two--I check/call river