Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

I don't remember where exactly, but I saw a comment in another thread today that said that good players have a W$wsf of 42-46, or somewhere around there. Id always thought that 40 or above was reasonable, personally mine is 40 exactly. Is this 42-46 number accurate?

If so, what is it that puts the best players that few percent higher? More aggression overall, folding less winners or a combination of that and other things? I realize that maybe I'm just asking 'how do I play better poker?' but thats not really what Im getting at - I would just like to know what people think of this stat. While discussing the pokerEV software and graphs people seem to say that the best players win more pots without a showdown, is it about achieving an optimal frequency between bluffing and betting made hands for value? (im not sure that even makes sense but hopefully you understand what I am getting at).

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

Without PT in front of me, i think mine is at 40/41, playing a nitty 16/18 and went to showdown at 24% (i think).

I think that is standard?
I'd be interested to know what difference being a LAG does?

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

Well, mine only hits 38%, I was quite worried... then I read the juicier / loose your tables are then the lower your w$wsf will be, and I table select a ton so hopefully that explains mine.

Maybe peeps with micro stakes stats can back this up... are w$wsf %'s noticibly lower at micros than ssnl?

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

My w$wsf over about 40k hands at nl50 is 48 over the long haul.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, mine only hits 38%, I was quite worried... then I read the juicier / loose your tables are then the lower your w$wsf will be, and I table select a ton so hopefully that explains mine.

[/ QUOTE ]+1

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

i play 20/14 and im 39% but i dont spew enough lately. If you own its 42%+
However i get opps to showdown wayyyy to much, comes from being a limit donk, so i get good 3 street value versus fish

However i rule at table selection so i win big pots and might lose a few smaller ones.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

this stat alone is useless, it must be coupled with your w@sD and go to SD%. if someone pushes allin all the time on the flop, w$wsf is probably going to be in the high 90%.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

W$WSF is definitely lower if you're playing with a ton of stations that simply arent folding. Your cbets will work less and you'll win huge pots and lose a bunch of smaller ones.

That said, it's usually higher as you get higher in stakes because people progressively fold more.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

Its important. Not as important as everyone started drooling over it after kotkis' EV graph, but very very close. If you consistently are around 40 or below, you are very easy to play against and probably shouln't move up anytime soon. This is not to say you aren't a winner, its to say that your fundamentals for higher levels are flawed and one of the biggest reasons that most people in this forum think higher levels are "so difficult" when they move up. They aren't trying to win enough pots and they fold way to much. Really bad combo.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

mine's 19.7/13 W$WSF is exactly 40 also. went to SD% at 28. over 10k hands. I'm a nit, is it a good stat?

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

15k hands, 19/15

W$SD 51%
WTSD 24%

So gotta be pretty happy? I was wondering what 'decent stats' were for these areas and was going to ask on here.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you consistently are around 40 or below, you are very easy to play against and probably shouln't move up anytime soon. This is not to say you aren't a winner, its to say that your fundamentals for higher levels are flawed and one of the biggest reasons that most people in this forum think higher levels are "so difficult" when they move up. They aren't trying to win enough pots and they fold way to much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this is what I was getting at, Im feeling a bit lost for where to look to get a more solid grasp of those fundamentals.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
this stat alone is useless, it must be coupled with your w@sD and go to SD%. if someone pushes allin all the time on the flop, w$wsf is probably going to be in the high 90%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not useless alone. Its probably the stat that comes closest to being a metric for a player's postflop skill.

And your example is [censored] because that doesnt actually happen more than once in a blue moon. Why optimize your game for anything other than the normal case?

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you consistently are around 40 or below, you are very easy to play against and probably shouln't move up anytime soon. This is not to say you aren't a winner, its to say that your fundamentals for higher levels are flawed and one of the biggest reasons that most people in this forum think higher levels are "so difficult" when they move up. They aren't trying to win enough pots and they fold way to much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this is what I was getting at, Im feeling a bit lost for where to look to get a more solid grasp of those fundamentals.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, the best way to get better at these situations is to ask yourself how you would exploit yourself, and then do those things against your opponents where applicable.

For example, if you bet the turn with a made hand and think to yourself "god getting raised would suck here," then you should start raising as the villan in these spots.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

My w$wsf is around 50-55% for all positions except for the big and small blinds, where its 35 and 45% respectively.

good or bad?

"overall" it is at 44%. It is important to look at how you're playing by position..

thanks
Mike

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

I'd like to hear other opinions (esp carrotsnake) but this sounds pretty good. The thing about W$WSF is it's when you see the flop, not when you put money in. You'll see the flop in teh BB a lot more often, so your W$WSF from these holes will be way low. I'd also suspect that if your WWSF from the SB is too low (although I'm not exactly sure what too low is yet), this is an indication that you VPIP from the SB too much.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

The truer the axiom "win money, not pots", the more insignificant W$WSF is as a statistic.

Hitting a +/-5% range in the 40s is probably as much as you want to get out of the stat.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

For me,

W$WSF 43
WTSD 25
W$SD 53

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

for me-
w$wsf 44
wtsd 22
w$sd 46.5

huge station? i think so.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
For me,

W$WSF 43
WTSD 25
W$SD 53

[/ QUOTE ]

me too [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

err, wtsd of 22 is a station ? Thats a huge river nit to me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] <3

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

wtsd 24
w$sd 53
w$wsf 48

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

mine are

wtsd 22
w$sd 50
w$wsf 40

I guess I just suck at winning enough pots when I see a flop?

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

lol I suck all around..

wtsd 27
w$sd 52
w$wsf 39

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
wtsd 24
w$sd 53
w$wsf 48

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be god.

WTSD 25
W$SD 48
W$WSF 50

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

Me:

W$WSF: 41.2
WTSD: 24
W$SD: 53

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
err, wtsd of 22 is a station ? Thats a huge river nit to me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] <3

[/ QUOTE ]
nah, i always lose though. isnt 46 smallish?

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

W$WSF: 39.5
WTSD: 23.6
W$SD: 52

I think W$WSF combos tell you a bit about how good your bluffing frequencies on the flop and turn (cbetting, 2nd barrelling, c/ring flops w air, etc etc) Whenever my W$SD is below 45 on a session I'm almost invariably running poorly.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

W$WSF: 37
WTSD: 21
W$SD: 55

ya im working on it ok so just leave me alone [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
ya im working on it ok so just leave me alone [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was saying to myself when I posted my stats too. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

If you usually see a flop HU and only occasionally 3 or 4 ways (pretty likely if you are decent), then you "deserve" to win just under 50% of the pots when you see the flop. Maybe like 43-46% or so. If you're winning less than this, you've gotta be folding too much.

fwiw, mine is like 44% or so I think.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

my w$wsf is a bit low too.. about 40 over 18K hands (small sample).. I'd probably attribute it to not being aggro enough post-flop (what are people's post flop af numbers? I venture to guess the higher your af, then the higher your w$wsf?).. also maybe folding too much could have something to do with it. Will work on this..

I guess it could also be due to playing too many pots OOP and not enough in position, which lead to a lot of check/folding.

Here are w$wsf stats by position.. does anything stick out as being really bad? #'s need bigger sample size to come to anything conclusive, but better than nothing

Button: 50.09
1: 48.17
2: 51.6
3: 50.79
BB: 30.14
SB: 38.66

total: 40.08
This basically shows how important position is I guess.. it does seem weird that I'm not winning more on my button than anywhere else.. I think this might be because I'm raising lighter from the button than any other position, so maybe I give up too quickly on flops

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

W$WSF: 47
WTSD: 24
W$SD: 49

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

My button W$WSF also really isn't appreciably higher than other non-BB positions. I am not necessarily surprised, I think it goes back to people over-respecting early position raises when more people have position on you, so it kind of balances out.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

[ QUOTE ]
My button W$WSF also really isn't appreciably higher than other non-BB positions. I am not necessarily surprised, I think it goes back to people over-respecting early position raises when more people have position on you, so it kind of balances out.

[/ QUOTE ]

And because this isn't completely clear, I think it means a lot of people call with hands like sc's and small pocket pairs and immediately ditch then when you c-bet if you were in EP preflop. Also, I see more floating in hands where you are the CO and the button calls preflop, so that discounts some of the positional affect there.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

over all my (90k) hands of NL100 playing 19/15
W$WSF: 41
WTSD: 31.5
W$SD: 53

Last 25k where i've tightened up to 17.5/14 and played generally better
W$WSF: 41
WTSD: 31
W$SD: 57

I don't know how my wtsd is so damn high, incredibly soft villains or just on a long heater?

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

W$WSF: 43
WTSD: 24
W$SD: 51

For me, the biggest contributors to my W$WSF are the level of attention I am giving to the games and my MT ratio. I have a full time job and poker is just a profitable hobby for me. As a result, some nights, I play just to play and am not as focused as I should be leading to a lower W$WSF than other nights where I'm totally focused, maybe playing only two or three tables and the spots to pick up these pots become a lot clearer and I'll run at upwards of 50%.

I don't see how someone playing 12 tables or whatever you crazy kids do could ever have a high number because it's just so much easier with that much going on to 'let this one go' over and over and over.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

Data relative to my last 6.5K hands (my last 1.5k) playing 20/14.

W$WSF: 40.65 (37)
WTSD: 23.64 (19.38)
W$SD: 45.92 (45.79)

I think I must fix some leaks....

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

I'm at 47% playing 23/19.

Re: Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)
 

Thought I would bump this thread for this:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1448/50100downkv9.jpg

Discuss?

Oh yeah it's Jman's