What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

2nd hour of the $10 20K Gtd. Villain is 18/4 over like 12 hands or so.

We are both top 30 in chips with like 700 or so left.

Poker Stars, $10 + $1 NL Hold'em Tournament, 150/300 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG+1: 1,890
MP1: 34,518
Hero (MP2): 21,575
CO: 6,920
BTN: 4,187
SB: 14,081
BB: 19,913
UTG: 14,467

Pre-Flop: (650) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP2)
2 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to 1,200</font>, Hero calls 1,200, 4 folds

Flop: (3,050) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets 2,100</font>, <font color="red">MP1 raises to 33,293 and is All-In</font>, Hero???

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

Range on that flop? AA, KK, AK, AQ (only the Q can be a club here), 99. He's beating you, especially since you have a stack that can do some serious damage. He's not bluffing here.

Easy Foxtrot-Lima-Oscar-Delta.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

aq q clubs? kq q clubs ,ak no club,999,kkk,aaa, i fold it

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

the truth is he should bet this flop with whatever he's c/r with. he doesn't expect you to bet/call draws so why not try to lead and b3b.

i fold, chalk it up as an anomaly or w/e post it on 2p2 get feedback etc

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

easy fold

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

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easy fold

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Not what I asked.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

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aq q clubs? kq q clubs ,ak no club,999,kkk,aaa, i fold it

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This can also be something like 78cc and every now and then a hand you are ahead of with like 14 outs like KhJc. I don't like the flop bet here at all.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

I think you can tuck that safely away in the TJcc/JQcc (not enough hands to rule these out) AQc and not as much but 99, KQc, a poorly played AK. I don't think an 18/4 plays baby flush cards this way as they're the prime limp cards.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

Nah... his 4x the BB open from MP1 is not 7c8c, or QJcc or JTcc. It's trips, or a pair of aces and the draw. His bet wants to close it out right then and there. So I'm betting trips. Specifically 999.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

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Nah... his 4x the BB open from MP1 is not 7c8c, or QJcc or JTcc. It's trips, or a pair of aces and the draw. His bet wants to close it out right then and there. So I'm betting trips. Specifically 999.

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Do you check that flop w 99?
TJ/JQss is da nutz.

agreed AQc here most times, but can't ignore da nutz

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

AK TJcc QJcc. fold. what did he have?

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

If he's decent/good: pair+FD, or a combo draw (FD+gut-shot.) I think he has to lead with any strong hand (ie. TP/2pair/99.) KxJc;KxQc and QcTx;QcJx prob make up a pretty big part of his range here IMO.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

Most probably AxQc, AxJc, KxQc, less likely QxQc/JxJc. AA/KK/99/AK possibly.

Unless he's a massive spewtard you're smoked.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

i think villian is scared
the 33k shove in 5k pot kinda shows that
i dont think villian has clubs maybe 1
i think he knew that if he betted out you could raise him and he would have to fold

so maybe thats why he decided to check/raise you to give you the hard decision

but still its a very hard call you would have to believe villian has no ace no set
if villian does have an ace youre drawing dead most times

hard to put a villian on a hand as it could be KK as much as KQ as AJ

Re: What is his range
 

Lot's of things he could have. 2 pair or better -- A9, AK, sets could be played like this. Fairly rare for a flush to play this way. Any decent or fairly bare Qc (e.g. decent = QcA, fairly bare = QcJ), a good Jc (e.g. JcK). Possibly AQ,AJ no club.
I'd weight the range towards hand that want you to fold (so mostly semibluffs, mostly your ahead) or perhaps very vulnerable hands (A9? perhaps) but there's a lot of hands you lose to &amp; I don't think you have enough equity to call

Re: What is his range
 

check this flop imo, you can't really get paid so you bet to protect but you miss value from worse hands and you run into situations like this from time to time.

Re: What is his range
 

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check this flop imo, you can't really get paid so you bet to protect but you miss value from worse hands and you run into situations like this from time to time.

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I actually like this line and use it a lot on draw heavy boards like this. This is especially in position, whereas if a 4th club hits and he fires, you are almost sure that you are beat anyway and you can easily be taken off the best hand. You actually want to go to showdown cheapily in this hand. Also, he will have a much harder time raising you off your hand on the turn with one card to go.

Barry

Re: What is his range
 

Checking would be bad, as you have give up on any club turn. I think he check folds a lot given how scary it is so a bet prevails imo

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

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If he's decent/good: pair+FD, or a combo draw (FD+gut-shot.) I think he has to lead with any strong hand (ie. TP/2pair/99.) KxJc;KxQc and QcTx;QcJx prob make up a pretty big part of his range here IMO.

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This was what I was thinking. If he has AK, why would he let me have a free shot at a flush? If he has a set, same thing. Both are terrible plays if he has any real holding.

So, I reasoned that his most likely holdings were hands with a single club (i.e. QQc, AxQc, KxJc, KxQc, QcTx, QcJx).

I was surprised when I called and villain showed AhKh. I guess that's what I get for assuming my opponents have a clue. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Sherman

Edit: BTW, the reason I bet is pretty obvious. If he has an underpair and 1 club, I can't give him a free look at the turn either.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

Really interesting hand Sherman..

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

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If he's decent/good: pair+FD, or a combo draw (FD+gut-shot.) I think he has to lead with any strong hand (ie. TP/2pair/99.) KxJc;KxQc and QcTx;QcJx prob make up a pretty big part of his range here IMO.

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This was what I was thinking. If he has AK, why would he let me have a free shot at a flush? If he has a set, same thing. Both are terrible plays if he has any real holding.

So, I reasoned that his most likely holdings were hands with a single club (i.e. QQc, AxQc, KxJc, KxQc, QcTx, QcJx).

I was surprised when I called and villain showed AhKh. I guess that's what I get for assuming my opponents have a clue. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Sherman

Edit: BTW, the reason I bet is pretty obvious. If he has an underpair and 1 club, I can't give him a free look at the turn either.

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Yeah, the reason for betting is obvious, but is it obviously the best move?

The pot is ~ 1/7th your stack, which is still very healthy after your flat call. When you bet, you're doing it because you don't want to give a free club or give a free card to an underpair:

1. An underpair has a 4% chance of getting there on each street. Honestly, on this board, who cares. Obv., on another board, you care, but this one?

2. A club has a 20% chance of getting there, but chances are, if you lead, two clubs (Qc and Jc) come over the top and you're taken off the best hand (unless you call, which is bad, IMO). Other hands RR too, AK/A9, sets, but as has happened, that will leave you with a big "WTF" situation.

3. I can't imagine you looking to win a big pot here on this board.

4. If he has 9c or 8c or something, a 4th club will give him the best hand, but, he may not even bet anyway because he's afraid, and you lose nothing.

5. 80% of the time, you will see the turn with only one card to go now and can seriously consider a float. His leading range will widen considerably. And you still exercise some pot control.

6. If he does not have the goods, many times he slows down on the river + many cards serve as scare cards for him OOP and can lead you to a cheaper showdown with the best hand a decent chunk of the time.

When you bet 2/3rds the pot here, you build up to 5K, thereby making the pot 1/3rd of your stack. An RR here is a nightmare. IMO, an RR here is a nightmare by far more than seeing a 4th club in position on a wet board where your opponent may/may not be making a mistake here by checking.

Barry
PS: I realize this is late stage play, so you feel that betting the flop here is imperative. I just think that some boards / positions serve for different actions, even if late, and this is one of them.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

Barry,

You are right.

Sherman

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

Ok, well i put his preflop range at 22 - AA, AT+, QJ+, 9Ts+, TQ, KJ.

It's wide and it's weird but he's a very big stack and there are antes. I think he's going to raise quite often here preflop, even as an 18/4 over 12 hands.

With this being the case, what hands in his range check raise? Hmmm. I don't think his super strong hands like AA, KK, 99 or KA check raise all in. I think they are going to try to build a pot here either by leading out small or check raising small, especially out of position. I eliminate them.

Smaller pairs will probably bet out hoping you whiffed or just play it small/give up.

Anything in his range that is a combo pair + draw are really good candidates. AT+ with a club are good candidates. Also very likely is combo straight and flush draws like suited connectors like 9T+ with a club, TQ and JK with a club.

Everything I pokerstove with this flop range has you as a very minor favorite or dead even going forward.

Edit: I was late to party and didn't see Barry's post. Great analysis and basically right in everyway. Leading out just caused you trouble.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

QQ in play? check raise would be odd though rather than betting out

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

set, AK, made flush, A9, K9, Axc

In other words, it's a lot of hands that have you beat and maybe a rare few that you have crushed. Easy fold imo

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

Check the flop. lol at villian showing AhKh. Wow.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

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If he's decent/good: pair+FD, or a combo draw (FD+gut-shot.) I think he has to lead with any strong hand (ie. TP/2pair/99.) KxJc;KxQc and QcTx;QcJx prob make up a pretty big part of his range here IMO.

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This was what I was thinking. If he has AK, why would he let me have a free shot at a flush? If he has a set, same thing. Both are terrible plays if he has any real holding.

So, I reasoned that his most likely holdings were hands with a single club (i.e. QQc, AxQc, KxJc, KxQc, QcTx, QcJx).

I was surprised when I called and villain showed AhKh. I guess that's what I get for assuming my opponents have a clue. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Sherman

Edit: BTW, the reason I bet is pretty obvious. If he has an underpair and 1 club, I can't give him a free look at the turn either.

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Yeah, the reason for betting is obvious, but is it obviously the best move?

The pot is ~ 1/7th your stack, which is still very healthy after your flat call. When you bet, you're doing it because you don't want to give a free club or give a free card to an underpair:

1. An underpair has a 4% chance of getting there on each street. Honestly, on this board, who cares. Obv., on another board, you care, but this one?

2. A club has a 20% chance of getting there, but chances are, if you lead, two clubs (Qc and Jc) come over the top and you're taken off the best hand (unless you call, which is bad, IMO). Other hands RR too, AK/A9, sets, but as has happened, that will leave you with a big "WTF" situation.

3. I can't imagine you looking to win a big pot here on this board.

4. If he has 9c or 8c or something, a 4th club will give him the best hand, but, he may not even bet anyway because he's afraid, and you lose nothing.

5. 80% of the time, you will see the turn with only one card to go now and can seriously consider a float. His leading range will widen considerably. And you still exercise some pot control.

6. If he does not have the goods, many times he slows down on the river + many cards serve as scare cards for him OOP and can lead you to a cheaper showdown with the best hand a decent chunk of the time.

When you bet 2/3rds the pot here, you build up to 5K, thereby making the pot 1/3rd of your stack. An RR here is a nightmare. IMO, an RR here is a nightmare by far more than seeing a 4th club in position on a wet board where your opponent may/may not be making a mistake here by checking.

Barry
PS: I realize this is late stage play, so you feel that betting the flop here is imperative. I just think that some boards / positions serve for different actions, even if late, and this is one of them.

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*Nods in agreement.

Re: What is his range for check/raising this flop on this board?
 

You really need a read on his post flop play bc no decent player is ever check/overshoving if he hit this flop hard. His range looks a lot like a lone club/combo draw. Problem is, you're calling off a big stack here in a WTF situation where you are either a little bit ahead or a lot behind. If he's the kind of player who's going to make these sorts of plays, I think you can find a better spot than this. I'd fold.