20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

1st razz post, comments on all streets appreciated.

Thanks.

Razz ($20/$40), Ante $3, Bring-In $6 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.30 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___raises___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes___raises

4th Street - (6.30 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street - (3.15 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (7.15 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.15 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___folds
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (9.15 BB - $366)

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

I wouldn't 3-bet 3rd, It gives awat too much informayion and doesn't accomplish much.

I also think the check behind on 4th gives away that you paired.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

Agreed, and this might sound a little whacky but I usually 3-bet 5th in this spot because I want to represent the 8 draw and I'm never that far behind anyway. After the check on 4th it might be a hard sell, however...

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

i pretty much agree with the first two posters but what hte hell is your opponent doing on 5th? (24)JAA? putting you on a jack draw? that would be sick.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
i pretty much agree with the first two posters but what hte hell is your opponent doing on 5th? (24)JAA? putting you on a jack draw? that would be sick.

[/ QUOTE ]
My read is villain assumed OP paired on 4th. Villain may have not as good starting cards as OP, but assumes he is ahead on 5th because he didn't pair 4th and OP did.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

betgo,
if i dont 3bet 3rd, then i would be bet/folding 5th? becos i still wouldnt bet 4rth.

& i'm not really understanding y no 3bet 3rd, in all likelihood i have the best hand at the moment (though by a negligible margin), but my opponent is 'bigfacecat', who likes to play the small bet streets very aggresively. so its very possible he would BI/2bet a hand like 92J or 9AJ, just to see if i'm gonna back down.

anyway, thanks for the advice thus far, razz is a real interesting game & i'm still learning a bunch

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

Here's the thing about bigface - if you show him any sign of weakness at all he goes crazy. By checking 4th, he is assuming you have either paired or didn't start well. I'm 3-betting 5th street 100% of the time in this spot vs. bigface. If you did this, he would've folded 6th when he hit the K which is very favorable because if you brick out on 7th you might lose the pot...

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

btw, learning at 20/40? Ballin...

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

okay bigfacecat aside ( ill pretend this is your avg competent razzer ) i like to rr 3rd especially because you DONT have an A or 2 in the hole, i think its more discreet. that said you need to follow up and bet fourth-6th and c/c seventh. you have a better chance of your opponent bluffing the worst hand then calling with it. you probably dont want any call youre going to get.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

razz is stupid.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
betgo,
if i dont 3bet 3rd, then i would be bet/folding 5th? becos i still wouldnt bet 4rth.

& i'm not really understanding y no 3bet 3rd, in all likelihood i have the best hand at the moment (though by a negligible margin), but my opponent is 'bigfacecat', who likes to play the small bet streets very aggresively. so its very possible he would BI/2bet a hand like 92J or 9AJ, just to see if i'm gonna back down.

anyway, thanks for the advice thus far, razz is a real interesting game & i'm still learning a bunch

[/ QUOTE ]

The 3-bet is OK versus bigfacecat. I would just flat call and not let him know what I have. You get a lot more value that way, and he doesn't fold easily anyway.

IMO bigfacecat plays way to aggressively for razz, but his style is probably better suited to HU than FR. Aggression just doesn't work as well in razz as in some other games.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
My read is villain assumed OP paired on 4th. Villain may have not as good starting cards as OP, but assumes he is ahead on 5th because he didn't pair 4th and OP did.

[/ QUOTE ]Question, please, presuming villain is some average but competent player - Villain checked first on 4th. So, why would he assume he is ahead? Don't we, as Hero, also think he either paired or has a brick in the hole? I would have bet 4th, also, but either Villain is really weak or doing some trapping deal.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

@istackbooks,
would you check behind 4rth then bet/3bet 5th? or are you taking this path assuming you bet 4rth.

I totally agree, bigfacecat is the type of player to run over passive opponents or 'bet-savers' HU or shorthanded

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

If you can stand the swings, the best strategy vs. bigface is to play your big hands slow early on. He is very very easy to manipulate like this, but he sees the showdown pretty much no matter what if you play a hand this way so the variance is pretty huge. There is a small following on full tilt of players who want to hunt this guy down because of how retardedly sick he runs...

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

Ayo - I'm saying 3-bet 5th given your line. If you bet 4th, and he still raises you on 5th then I again will be 3-betting but I think he either calls or folds in that spot...

Against bigface, you have to bet 4th or as you see you have a very small chance of winning the pot w/out a showdown...

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My read is villain assumed OP paired on 4th. Villain may have not as good starting cards as OP, but assumes he is ahead on 5th because he didn't pair 4th and OP did.

[/ QUOTE ]Question, please, presuming villain is some average but competent player - Villain checked first on 4th. So, why would he assume he is ahead? Don't we, as Hero, also think he either paired or has a brick in the hole? I would have bet 4th, also, but either Villain is really weak or doing some trapping deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think its fair to guess the a paired him ( until we see 5th ), but this bluff/bet is more to represent a credible line then anything else.

edited: i think i misunderstood your first sentence and just wrote something you didnt need to read. oh well. betbtbetbebtbetbetbebtbebtbet

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

Zactly...

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

im never playing a hand with you again.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

I think you're making a huge mistake by not capping 3d and checking 4th. You've showed extreme strength, and he may well just have been taking a shot at you by re-raising on 3d and called hoping you would brick.

Checking really screams "pair" and you're very close to just giving up the hand in a 6BB pot.

That being said, I wouldn't cap this on 3d, ever. Exactly because it does put you on a pretty narrow range.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
edited: i think i misunderstood your first sentence and just wrote something you didnt need to read. oh well. betbtbetbebtbetbetbebtbebtbet

[/ QUOTE ]LOL! It's a good thing, though. Imagine a high stakes Razz player saying something I don't need to read! When I started here a couple months ago, I didn't know what "rough" meant! So, hey...


betbetbetbetbetbetbet

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

I like this play too, but I think it must be obv. by check on 4th that you paired, esp. since you 3 bet 3rd...

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

You MUST bet 4th to represent something, if he raises just call. The reason you must bet is because you are still a long way from showdown and will get be able to get a fold much more easily.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
You MUST bet 4th to represent something, if he raises just call. The reason you must bet is because you are still a long way from showdown and will get be able to get a fold much more easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the keys to razz is deception. You don't want to keep betting representing something when you miss, as that usually turns out to be a spew. However, in this situation, checking gives villain way too much accurate information, and this is not a hand you want to give up on.

Re: 20/40 Heads Up Razz hand on Full Tilt
 

i dont know man. if im completing, its one thing, but im for damn sure not fking up my line on 4th if i 3 bet third. unless this exact player has seen me do this x amount of times and i showed down strong.