2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

The villian in the hand has shown that he doesnt mind 3-betting me preflop. We got it all in preflop once were he 3 bet me with JJ and i pushed KK and won the hand. With that being said, I still think he is 3-betting me more then he shoudl. Should I be folding, calling, or raising?

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $442.50
UTG: $537.40
CO: $746.60
Hero (BTN): $921.30
SB: $396

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $46</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $32

Flop: ($96) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $84</font>, Hero?

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

I call here

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

Against constant 3-bettors I am pushing this all day. You're not folding out a better hand but calling will just lead to tough situations and we have equity to back up when we're called.

Basically we have the best hand alot but it's vulnerable and he might continue a bluff or suck out on the turn so I stick it in.

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

i shove a fair amount of the time here.

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

i'd call, decent draw, best hand, position etc

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

calling is quite bad here due to hating yourself on the turn and river, and your image is perfect for a shove right now given previous hand

shove it like it's 1999

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

calling isn't quite bad here. wondering why you think it is?

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

calling and calling any non-a/k turn can be good here cuz some ppl get real bluff happy after losing a big pot

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling isn't quite bad here. wondering why you think it is?

[/ QUOTE ]

if we assume villain is pfrring light, then i don't think we want him to see a turn card, i think his calling range of our shove includes quite a few draws, and he will sometimes fold a similar hand to ours (though granted not often prob)

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

if you call and he checks blank turn to you how do you play it? what about if he fires again?

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

Call flop and fold if unimproved on later streets.

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

I shove the flop.

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call flop and fold if unimproved on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

this why i don't like calling, cause it's too tempting to do this, and it is often enough not the correct action if his pfrr range is wide enough

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

kowl.

Re: 2-4NL - When do I take a stand?
 

The math behind shoving all-in:

Pot size: 96+84 = 180
Left to Shove: 396-46 = 350
Final Pot Size: 396*2 = 792

Equity when called (included 2 combos of A8s that represent tilt calls):

Board: Jd 8c 7c
Hand 0: 28.324% { 9c9h }
Hand 1: 71.676% { 77+, AcKc, AcQc, AJs, AcTc, Ac9c, Ah8h, As8s, KcQc, KJs, KcTc, QJs, QcTc, JTs, Jc9c, Jd9d, T9s, AJo }

Let X=P(Fold),
EV(Shove)=0= 180*X + (1-X)(792*0.28-350)
X = 41.6%

His calling range represents 6.90% of total combos, so he needs to be cbetting a total of:
6.90%/(1-41.6%) = 11.82%

Now if there ever was a board to check give-up on for a PFR, this would be it, so i don't think he's c-bet folding enough here for a shove to be profitable. This changes if he's the type to insta-cbet all flops after 3-betting preflop.

At the same time, we have too much hand to fold, so I agree that call and reevaluate is the best option.