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-   -   Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=337762)

DrewDevil 02-21-2007 05:24 PM

Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
Chief Illiniwek's last dance

The mascot has been deemed offensive to Native Americans by either Native Americans or supporters of Native Americans.

I am about as non-politically correct as anyone, but this is one PC cause I kinda agree with. It is unthinkable that we would have teams named the "Alabama Blacks" or the "New York Jews," but we still have teams named after Indians.

There is something vaguely (or perhaps clearly) offensive about a white kid from the suburbs dressing up in buckskin and doing an Indian dance, I think.

I might feel differently if I rooted for an Indian team, and I know this causes a long-standing tradition come to an end (Chief Illiniwek has been around for 81 years, according to the article).

But I do think it's time to stop having teams named after Indians. This is a step in the right direction.

Colt McCoy 02-21-2007 05:27 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
Does it matter that the Seminole tribe backs FSU and sees it as an honor that the school would want their teams named after them?

MyTurn2Raise 02-21-2007 05:29 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
except for the white settlers of Illinois didn't oppress the Illini--your analogy is very incorrect and highlights the real reason the chief is leaving. People from the outside project their racist view on the situation.

the Illini are a part of my history and my state. It's very superficial to just lump them in with native americans.

DrewDevil 02-21-2007 05:32 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'd love to hear arguments from both sides.

I don't really think the Indian mascots are a problem because of oppression of Indians in the past... I just think it's offensive to name a team after a racial group.

MT2R, why is the analogy wrong? Why is my view "racist" ? Or superficial?

TheNoodleMan 02-21-2007 05:35 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]

I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'd love to hear arguments from both sides.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been done to death already.

72off 02-21-2007 05:37 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter that the Seminole tribe backs FSU and sees it as an honor that the school would want their teams named after them?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much money is FSU giving them?

CardSharpCook 02-21-2007 05:41 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
its funny, I thought you were on the correct side of the argument when you started saying things like, "It is unthinkable that we would have teams named the "Alabama Blacks" or the "New York Jews,"" As yes, there is no comparison btwn the New York Jews and the Fighting Illini. Teams are named after Indian tribes or Indians in general out of respect and perceived toughness - that isn't a bad thing. Do you have a problem with the New York Yankees, NE Patriots, LA Dodgers, SD Padres, Texas Rangers, UMASS minutemen, WV Mountaineers, etc? All these teams are named after a small grouping of the regions inhabitants out of respect for that grouping. It is equally commendable to name a team after a respected Indian tribe from the region, is it not?

PS I have no idea why the San Diegoians decided to name themselves after spanish missionaries.

CardSharpCook 02-21-2007 05:42 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter that the Seminole tribe backs FSU and sees it as an honor that the school would want their teams named after them?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much money is FSU giving them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you understand. The Indian tribe, the Seminoles, consider it a sign of respect that FSU would choose to name their sports teams after them.

Colt McCoy 02-21-2007 05:43 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter that the Seminole tribe backs FSU and sees it as an honor that the school would want their teams named after them?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much money is FSU giving them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they buy a bunch of stuff from them, but it's not like the tribe really needs it. I think they're one of the richest tribes in the country, if not the richest. They just bought Hard Rock. I think it was last year some group decided it was offensive to them, despite their own feelings on the matter, and filed a lawsuit. To me when you tell someone they're too stupid to know what should be offensive to them, you're the one being a bigot.

MicroBob 02-21-2007 05:44 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
I grew up cheering for the Miami (Ohio) Redskins and later went to that university, and after that was a play-by-play announcer for them.

the Miami tribe in Oklahoma changed their minds about their official 'approval' of the nickname and decided that they were kind of bothered by it.
In 1997 they changed the nickname to RedHawks amidst much contraversy amongst the sports-fans and athletics-boosters.
But I think it was about time.

They also got rid of the Chief Miami mascot guy who would do his Miami Indian dance in the end-zone. Somewhat similar to the Illini mascot I am guessing.

Lots of fans pulled their contributions or cancelled their season-tickets.
Time helped get a lot of those fans back but you would still hear some, "GO REDSKINS!!" really loud from some old-school guy in the stands.
Wally Szczerbiak leading the team to the Sweet 16 in 99 and then Ben Roethlesberger leading Miami to a conference championship, bowl-win and 13-1 record in 2003 helped win back even more of those fans.

CardSharpCook 02-21-2007 05:44 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
You might be racist because you could believe there is something derogitory about "Fighting Illini", but (probably) see "Yankees" as a term picked for pride. Start to consider that "indian" team names were also pciked for pride just as "Patriots" was.

AngusThermopyle 02-21-2007 05:49 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
1. There are no Illiniwek left in Illinois. They were "removed" in the 1830's
2. The outfit he wears is Sioux, not Illiniwek.
3. The "descendants" of the Illiniwek, the Peoria Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma, are currently against the symbol (the University does not call him a 'mascot'). Even the Sioux have asked that the costume be returned.

bugstud 02-21-2007 05:51 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
so what is notre dame's mascot going to be?

Colt McCoy 02-21-2007 05:53 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
so what is notre dame's mascot going to be?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they'll change it as soon as a group of Irishmen can stay sober long enough to ask for the switch. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

DrewDevil 02-21-2007 05:54 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
If the tribe doesn't think it's offensive or even thinks it's cool (e.g., the Seminoles), then I guess it's okay... but still a little weird.

JaredL 02-21-2007 06:02 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
As angus points out, they aren't even using the right tribe.

Speaking of Notre Dame, they should stay the Irish and use this guy as a mascot:
http://www.skocia.hu/news_images/Kilt.jpg

AngusThermopyle 02-21-2007 06:06 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
so what is notre dame's mascot going to be?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Blessed Virgins? (seen here signaling "First Down!")

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...le/OurLady.jpg

Case Closed 02-21-2007 06:11 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
I can't believe the the NCAA was able to force the university to do this. It's pretty [censored] situation that they hold so much power over the university.

New001 02-21-2007 06:12 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
At least they didn't make them change Fighting Illini? I'd go from not really caring to being kinda pissed. I only went there for a couple years though.

MyTurn2Raise 02-21-2007 06:13 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
alright, I unfortunately know way too much about this whole 'debate'

This thing has raged every since the late 80s and is a taboo topic to bring up in polite conversation--like abortion, politics, religion

here are the bad and the good about the chief

The Bad:

-It's a white american in face paint in front of a largely white crowd

-The dance moves are exaggerated in order for a whole stadium to see the dance

-The dance is done with a headdress on, which is not what would have happened

--the Peoria tribe, the closest connection to the Illini nation still in existence, changed its position on the chief 4 years ago IIRC. After long-time support, the tribal council voted 3-2 against its the university using the chief.

-people outside the program who don't know the history lump it together and stereotype it as blatant racism

The good:

-The school originally had the name Illini in order to honor the past of the state and to identify the students and alumni. The Illini tribe co-operated with and worked together with the original white settlers of the state. The whites and Illini shared quite a bit and were on the same side in nearly every skirmish. The Illini were pursued by other tribes and basically forever extinguished by other indian tribes in the area. It is no surprise then that these other tribes were among the first to call for the removal of the Illini name.

-The word 'fighting' was added in front of Illini to athletic teams after WWI in order to honor those within the university community who perished in the Great War. (Side note: Illinois' football stadium, Memorial Stadium, is a tribute to those victims as well and there is one column for every student/alumnus who perished during the war.)

-Chief Illiniwek was developed between the band director and the head football coach in the mid-1920s. Illiniwek is a carefully chosen word by Zuppke meant to convey the ideal he wants from his young men. Illiniwek: "The Whole man: physically, intellectually, and spiritually"

-the Chief has never been a mascot and doesn't do mascoty things. You'll never see a foam #1 finger. You'll never see back-flips and rah-rah cheers. The Chief doesn't stand on the sidelines throughout the game.

-The Chief is only used in a halftime celebration of tradition and honor to the state's and university's past and present. He does a dance, based on authentic moves, and stands solemnly in the middle of the field/court to lead the crowd in a singing of the alma mater.

-Chief Illiniwek's outfit is authentic.

-Chief Illiniwek is not a caricature being laughed at by the crowd. His movements inspire unity and promote tradition.

--The Chief is an honor to the past of my state and my university. The Illini are a part of my history of which I am proud.

-I've been to many places and seen their traditions-scrip 'i' at Ohio State-Varsity at Wisconsin. I haven't seen one that bonds the whole stadium like Chief Illiniwek.

For those who don't know, This is the Chief's halftime football performance
clip of the stands at a basketball game


obviously, I'm pro-chief. I find it an honor to the history of my state. I take umbrage with those that divide this into a native-American v White-American argument. I don't see this as a we v they history. I see the Illini tribe as every bit a part of my history. I also see the university uses Chief Illiniwek and the name Illini in a respectful manner. I do wish they could improve slightly, like only have the head-dress on during the solemn singing of the alma mater and not during the dance. However, I am against the removal of the Chief that highlights the original founding of my home state.

I do see the need for removal though based mainly on the point I bolded. Most people cannot see the unique situation and will prejudge it as racism. Despite a well-thought out and well-debated issue in the local region, those outside the area perceive us all as bigoted hicks.

DrewDevil 02-21-2007 06:16 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
Good post, MT2R.

MikeyPatriot 02-21-2007 06:18 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
its funny, I thought you were on the correct side of the argument when you started saying things like, "It is unthinkable that we would have teams named the "Alabama Blacks" or the "New York Jews,"" As yes, there is no comparison btwn the New York Jews and the Fighting Illini. Teams are named after Indian tribes or Indians in general out of respect and perceived toughness - that isn't a bad thing. Do you have a problem with the New York Yankees, NE Patriots, LA Dodgers, SD Padres, Texas Rangers, UMASS minutemen, WV Mountaineers, etc? All these teams are named after a small grouping of the regions inhabitants out of respect for that grouping. It is equally commendable to name a team after a respected Indian tribe from the region, is it not?

PS I have no idea why the San Diegoians decided to name themselves after spanish missionaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of the nicknames you used as examples are a race or tribe of people.

UofI is an interesting topic though because there are good arguments on both sides. Compared to the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins, which are absolutely atrocious and an embarrassment for professional sports.

MyTurn2Raise 02-21-2007 06:20 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
I agree with Mikey...there are legit arguments for both sides

unfortunately, the debate in town has polarized the camps (as most debates end up doing). Any room for a middle ground disappeared at least 10 years ago.


I am very much against the Washington Redskins name
I am against Chief Wahoo.

MikeyPatriot 02-21-2007 06:22 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
MT2r, through your posts, I've changed my thought on UofI using Illini or Fighting Illini as their nickname. (I agree that it honors the tribe.)

However, I still don't like the idea of a white guy dressing up as a Native American performing dancing rituals at half time of a football or basketball game. Offensive or not, it really just doesn't seem appropriate.

xorbie 02-21-2007 06:23 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
UofI is an interesting topic though because there are good arguments on both sides. Compared to the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins, which are absolutely atrocious and an embarrassment for professional sports.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. they ought to go, but it's easier to go after college teams.

MyTurn2Raise 02-21-2007 06:26 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
However, I still don't like the idea of a white guy dressing up as a Native American performing dancing rituals at half time of a football or basketball game. Offensive or not, it really just doesn't seem appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely understand that. I wish the two sides could have came together and worked out a compromise such as
1) tone down the dance
2) have an actual native-american come out to midfield and lead the stadium in a rendition of the alma mater
3) put more money into native-american studies department and scholarships for native-americans from depressed communities

unfortunately, the debate got too ugly and no side was willing to concede anything

DrewDevil 02-21-2007 06:33 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
its funny, I thought you were on the correct side of the argument when you started saying things like, "It is unthinkable that we would have teams named the "Alabama Blacks" or the "New York Jews,"" As yes, there is no comparison btwn the New York Jews and the Fighting Illini. Teams are named after Indian tribes or Indians in general out of respect and perceived toughness - that isn't a bad thing. Do you have a problem with the New York Yankees, NE Patriots, LA Dodgers, SD Padres, Texas Rangers, UMASS minutemen, WV Mountaineers, etc? All these teams are named after a small grouping of the regions inhabitants out of respect for that grouping. It is equally commendable to name a team after a respected Indian tribe from the region, is it not?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's pretty obvious that these are not the same kinds of groups.

MyTurn2Raise 02-21-2007 06:48 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
Good post, MT2R.

[/ QUOTE ]

ty, but it's obviously from a pro-chief angle

IlliniLou 02-21-2007 08:01 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
alright obviously i have a view on this. The guy who actually does the dance ( in fact all of them who have done the dance) have to go and learn the dance. So its not like they made it up. They won't allow anyone to be the chief. Getting rid of the Chief from halftime is disappointing but I understand that if it offends people then it should go. What I would like to know is how we could honor instead of offend the tribe. I would like the decedents of the Illini tribe to be more vocal instead of letting the NCAA do all the talking on there behalf.

crockpot 02-21-2007 08:08 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
i recall way too many letters to editor in the daily illini of this form:

"when i chose to attend the university of illinois, i did not know they had a native american mascot. now i find myself so distracted by the chief that i cannot concentrate on my studies. the chief must go now."

people like this who totally blow the issue out of proportion no doubt led to the chief's elimination.

i don't really have a stance on the chief because, as with all controversial issues, both sides have legitimate cases. but it's a shame that most people who have opinions on the issue are ignorant on the subject. mt2r's post should be printed and distributed to everyone who cares about it.

MicroBob 02-21-2007 08:17 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
Myturn - nice post.

Sounds somewhat similar to the former situation at Miami in which it was a white guy dressed up in authentic costume doing a real Miami dance. Not nearly as crowd unifying as it sounds at Illinois though.
But it was a tradition there.

When the Miami tribe took a new vote and decided to rescind their original approval of the Chief Miami and the dance and the nickname 'Redskins' somehow denoting bravery, etc...the university took immediate action and looked into changing the name.
They basically said that as long as the tribe approves it they have no problem in continuing to honor them in such a way.
And they held true to their word when the tribe changed their mind.


Obviously 'Redskins' could be considered to be a far more racist term than many of the other indian mascots though.

I remember travelling to a couple of hockey road-trips in the early 90's and there were protestors outside the arena with signs like "Go Home White-Skins" and stuff like that.

This was when it was even more of a hot-button issue imo.

AngusThermopyle 02-21-2007 08:58 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
I would like the decedents of the Illini tribe to be more vocal instead of letting the NCAA do all the talking on there behalf.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Wiki:

[ QUOTE ]

Ron Froman was later elected Chief, by which time his views on the Chief Illiniwek symbol had changed. His opinions shifted following meetings with American Indian students attending the University. In April 2000, the tribal council, with Chief Froman's support, passed by the margin of 3 to 2 a resolution requesting "the leadership of the University of Illinois to recognize the demeaning nature of the characterization of Chief Illiniwek, and cease use of this mascots [sic]". Froman stated "I don't know what the origination was, or what the reason was for the university to create Chief Illiniwek. I don't think it was to honor us, because, hell, they ran our (butts) out of Illinois." This puts Chief Illiniwek in a position different from that of the mascots of other schools such as Florida State University, whose Native American mascots are not opposed by the leadership of the corresponding tribes. In 2005, a new Chief, John P. Froman, when asked his position by the NCAA, indicated that "the Chief was not representative of our tribe and culture, mainly because the costume is Sioux." In 2006, in response to a widely published column by journalist George Will in support of the symbol's use, he wrote a letter reiterating the Peoria Tribe's opposition to the symbol and decrying that the "University of Illinois has ignored the tribe’s request for nearly five years."

[/ QUOTE ]

Vocal enough?
They asked the University to stop in April 2001, and the school ignored them.
Only when the NCAA was going to hit them in the pocketbook (cannot host NCAA playoff games, etc) did the school listen.

IlliniLou 02-22-2007 12:56 AM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
yeah i realize its the school fault, i meant that i want the tribe to tell us how we can honor them. obviously there are the people at the university who just ignored them but if they tell a student ran organization, then they would follow it

cardsharkk04 02-22-2007 04:56 AM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
3-2? Can you say sample size?

mattsey9 02-22-2007 09:13 AM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
yeah i realize its the school fault, i meant that i want the tribe to tell us how we can honor them. obviously there are the people at the university who just ignored them but if they tell a student ran organization, then they would follow it

[/ QUOTE ]

What the Peoria are saying is that they don't wish to be "honored" by the University of Illinois. To me, that is all that need be said.

savageorc 02-22-2007 12:36 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
Even the Sioux have asked that the costume be returned.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't a gift. The university PURCHASED the costume. Asking for the costume back was a political move only.

Clarkmeister 02-22-2007 12:43 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah i realize its the school fault, i meant that i want the tribe to tell us how we can honor them. obviously there are the people at the university who just ignored them but if they tell a student ran organization, then they would follow it

[/ QUOTE ]

What the Peoria are saying is that they don't wish to be "honored" by the University of Illinois. To me, that is all that need be said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too bad that its not about the Peoria tribe. Lots of problems with that wiki writeup, but it's really not worth getting into.

AngusThermopyle 02-22-2007 01:04 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]

Too bad that its not about the Peoria tribe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. It's about money. Indians object, the University is deaf. The NCAA tells you that you can't host playoff games, you listen.

ChromePony 02-22-2007 01:09 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
alright, I unfortunately know way too much about this whole 'debate'

This thing has raged every since the late 80s and is a taboo topic to bring up in polite conversation--like abortion, politics, religion

here are the bad and the good about the chief

The Bad:

-It's a white american in face paint in front of a largely white crowd

-The dance moves are exaggerated in order for a whole stadium to see the dance

-The dance is done with a headdress on, which is not what would have happened

--the Peoria tribe, the closest connection to the Illini nation still in existence, changed its position on the chief 4 years ago IIRC. After long-time support, the tribal council voted 3-2 against its the university using the chief.

-people outside the program who don't know the history lump it together and stereotype it as blatant racism

The good:

-The school originally had the name Illini in order to honor the past of the state and to identify the students and alumni. The Illini tribe co-operated with and worked together with the original white settlers of the state. The whites and Illini shared quite a bit and were on the same side in nearly every skirmish. The Illini were pursued by other tribes and basically forever extinguished by other indian tribes in the area. It is no surprise then that these other tribes were among the first to call for the removal of the Illini name.

-The word 'fighting' was added in front of Illini to athletic teams after WWI in order to honor those within the university community who perished in the Great War. (Side note: Illinois' football stadium, Memorial Stadium, is a tribute to those victims as well and there is one column for every student/alumnus who perished during the war.)

-Chief Illiniwek was developed between the band director and the head football coach in the mid-1920s. Illiniwek is a carefully chosen word by Zuppke meant to convey the ideal he wants from his young men. Illiniwek: "The Whole man: physically, intellectually, and spiritually"

-the Chief has never been a mascot and doesn't do mascoty things. You'll never see a foam #1 finger. You'll never see back-flips and rah-rah cheers. The Chief doesn't stand on the sidelines throughout the game.

-The Chief is only used in a halftime celebration of tradition and honor to the state's and university's past and present. He does a dance, based on authentic moves, and stands solemnly in the middle of the field/court to lead the crowd in a singing of the alma mater.

-Chief Illiniwek's outfit is authentic.

-Chief Illiniwek is not a caricature being laughed at by the crowd. His movements inspire unity and promote tradition.

--The Chief is an honor to the past of my state and my university. The Illini are a part of my history of which I am proud.

-I've been to many places and seen their traditions-scrip 'i' at Ohio State-Varsity at Wisconsin. I haven't seen one that bonds the whole stadium like Chief Illiniwek.

For those who don't know, This is the Chief's halftime football performance
clip of the stands at a basketball game


obviously, I'm pro-chief. I find it an honor to the history of my state. I take umbrage with those that divide this into a native-American v White-American argument. I don't see this as a we v they history. I see the Illini tribe as every bit a part of my history. I also see the university uses Chief Illiniwek and the name Illini in a respectful manner. I do wish they could improve slightly, like only have the head-dress on during the solemn singing of the alma mater and not during the dance. However, I am against the removal of the Chief that highlights the original founding of my home state.

I do see the need for removal though based mainly on the point I bolded. Most people cannot see the unique situation and will prejudge it as racism. Despite a well-thought out and well-debated issue in the local region, those outside the area perceive us all as bigoted hicks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good post MT2R, it highlights some sides of it that I hadn't though about before. However, as a total Illinois outsider I have attended one UI game (vs Oregon in Chicago a few years back, you killed us), that was my first exposure to the Chief and I was pretty appalled by what I say and couldn't believe what was going on. I can see the traditional side of it now but I can almost guarentee that not everyone was viewing it the same way. For example:

[ QUOTE ]
Chief Illiniwek is not a caricature being laughed at by the crowd. His movements inspire unity and promote tradition.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is just a little bit silly, a good portion of the student section was not holding hands in unity recalling the grand tradition of the tribe, I promise. While they werent laughing at they guy at all, I just feel like the whole display was very far from respectful. Again this was my first impression from an outsider who knew nothing about it going in the game.

I just think that in today's (perhaps overly) PC world, this is an easy thing to see go...sorry for your loss.

Clarkmeister 02-22-2007 01:17 PM

Re: Illinois Illini mascot to make final appearance tonight
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Too bad that its not about the Peoria tribe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. It's about money. Indians object, the University is deaf. The NCAA tells you that you can't host playoff games, you listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Peoria tribe really has virtually no relation to anything being discussed here. Them objecting is only slightly more relevant than some random Apache tribe objecting. And since their objection is the crux of your argument, I'm not sure what your point really is.


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