One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

Villain is solid probably a 2+2er, I feel like I can fold the flop to make my life easier, but I felt like calling was correct. The ace is a good and bad card. It hits my likely range of 2 pair, but I feel like if I bet he's still calling with 100% of his range that he raised the flop with and I'm going to be lost on the river. Should I of folded flop? If I don't want to fold to the raise give me a generic line for the rest of the hand and also the specific line for the A that turned. Thanks

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $365.05
UTG: $200
Hero (CO): $319.90
BTN: $334.50
SB: $214.90

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Khttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7</font>, BTN calls $7, 2 folds

Flop: ($17) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Qhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $14</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $74</font>, Hero calls $60

Turn: ($165) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($165) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

wow thats a big raise on the flop. I'd just fold and save urself a lot of stress/bad situations

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

Check and call the river.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

plays easier of you fold the flop

and i think it's the right play too, esp since you have the Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so villain can't have TP+FD

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

I probably just fold the flop. You're not really going to like any turn other than a ten and his raise size is really weird. I doubt a huge overbet like that is ever a bluff and even if it is a semibluff you'll never really know what turn cards are safe. As played I'm check folding that turn and check folding that river.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

man that flop raise is big, I normally fold this flop.
I don't see a villian bluf on a wet board like this because he will be looked up pretty light. And than I'm not talking about semibluffs against wich we are a flip. So yeah I would have folded the flop

I feel like you have to c/c the river as played because no draw hit I feel like he was one one because he checked behind the turn for a free card. So yeah c/c the river to induce bluffs and avoid getting raised.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

if he's solid like u say, i just fold the flop and stay away from the tough decisions...not so sure if it's the right play though

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

I fold the flop to the enormous raise every time without major history - he has two-pair or a set and doesn't want you to draw - either that or he has a huge draw himself with which you're flipping and have reverse implied odds.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

Such an easy flop fold.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

Yeah it's a pretty easy flop fold. You have terrible reverse implied odds, the pot size is spiraling out of control, you have no idea how to react to a turn bet (which he'll do with all his made hands and with draws sometimes) and you'll never get value out of a worse hand. Fold the flop.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

I dont think youre ahead of much, if anything, on the flop. I'd fold to flop raise. Only thing you're beating is like A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and yeah.... you're not really beating that either. Let it go on flop

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

You are out of position with a weak hand... Not sure how this could ever be a good flop call with the limited history you have on this dude.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

this seems like a really std hand tbh.

prob c/f river, and yeah fold flop your equity is pretty terrible

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
plays easier of you fold the flop

and i think it's the right play too, esp since you have the Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so villain can't have TP+FD

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm...if villain had TP+FD he'd have you smoked or be freerollin' and you'd fold even faster.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
this seems like a really std hand tbh.

prob c/f river, and yeah fold flop your equity is pretty terrible

[/ QUOTE ]

so my range is to wide. which of these are not part of a good tags range here:
Board: 9s Js Qd

Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 51.323% 44.72% 06.60% 20808 3072.50 { KcQs }

Hand 1: 48.677% 42.07% 06.60% 19577 3072.50 { TT-99, AQs, AsTs, KQs, QTs, J9s, T9s, 8s7s, 7s6s, AQo, KQo, QJo, JTo }

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

I know it's probably a leak to have an absolute rule about a certain situation...

But I cannot stand playing KQo out of position. Nothing good ever comes from it.

I'd fold the flop.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

easy fold on flop. What card except ten(not a spade) csn help you? And you are oop against solid opponent. Just fold and seek for more profitable situations

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this seems like a really std hand tbh.

prob c/f river, and yeah fold flop your equity is pretty terrible

[/ QUOTE ]

so my range is to wide. which of these are not part of a good tags range here:
Board: 9s Js Qd

Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 51.323% 44.72% 06.60% 20808 3072.50 { KcQs }

Hand 1: 48.677% 42.07% 06.60% 19577 3072.50 { TT-99, AQs, AsTs, KQs, QTs, J9s, T9s, 8s7s, 7s6s, AQo, KQo, QJo, JTo }

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't know which one of those hands he has, and you are out of position. 50% is not good enough to continue in a huge pot.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this seems like a really std hand tbh.

prob c/f river, and yeah fold flop your equity is pretty terrible

[/ QUOTE ]

so my range is to wide. which of these are not part of a good tags range here:
Board: 9s Js Qd

Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 51.323% 44.72% 06.60% 20808 3072.50 { KcQs }

Hand 1: 48.677% 42.07% 06.60% 19577 3072.50 { TT-99, AQs, AsTs, KQs, QTs, J9s, T9s, 8s7s, 7s6s, AQo, KQo, QJo, JTo }

[/ QUOTE ]

bah, for some reason some of the obvious hands didn't pull in. I'd still hardly say our equity 'sucks':
Board: 9s Js Qd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.516% 42.19% 05.33% 26313 3322.50 { KdQs }
Hand 1: 52.484% 47.16% 05.33% 29412 3322.50 { TT-99, AQs, AcTc, AsTs, KQs, KTs, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 8s7s, 7s6s, 6s5s, AQo, KQo, QJo, JTo }

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

He has A/x and isn't folding if you bet?

At least that's what the turn check behind usually means here. Either AT or A/xss. C/f ftw.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

c/c is also awful here

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
He has A/x and isn't folding if you bet?

At least that's what the turn check behind usually means here. Either AT or A/xss. C/f ftw.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is sort of what I was thinking and I though c/shove would be pretty sick here against anything up to about 120.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He has A/x and isn't folding if you bet?

At least that's what the turn check behind usually means here. Either AT or A/xss. C/f ftw.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is sort of what I was thinking and I though c/shove would be pretty sick here against anything up to about 120.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting looked up a fair amount. You're repping what, AQ played in an odd fashion?

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

AQ, AA might play this way, maybe I was looking to get it all in on the 'safe' turn but missed my c/r with a set. Point is, his range is filled with lots of air and second or third pairs even his tp hands are weak here and will often just not want to call off that last half buy-in.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
AQ, AA might play this way, maybe I was looking to get it all in on the 'safe' turn but missed my c/r with a set. Point is, his range is filled with lots of air and second or third pairs even his tp hands are weak here and will often just not want to call off that last half buy-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd much rather donk the turn with AQ/AA than try to c/r with it, and I think most good players would too. I also expect AA to maybe shove a fair amount on flop, being OOP, and he could fold AQ on flop.

I dunno, still seems pretty narrow. When you consider the range, and what percentage of that range is taking this line on all 3 streets.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

Dont think anyone mentioned 99 surely this is in his range looks like the sort of bet hes a big hand but is trying to protect it.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

if you guys have really been going at it in these co v btn scenarios, i wouldn't mind a shove.

i dont like just calling his raise.

typically, i would just fold here.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AQ, AA might play this way, maybe I was looking to get it all in on the 'safe' turn but missed my c/r with a set. Point is, his range is filled with lots of air and second or third pairs even his tp hands are weak here and will often just not want to call off that last half buy-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd much rather donk the turn with AQ/AA than try to c/r with it, and I think most good players would too. I also expect AA to maybe shove a fair amount on flop, being OOP, and he could fold AQ on flop.

I dunno, still seems pretty narrow. When you consider the range, and what percentage of that range is taking this line on all 3 streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA is the same hand on the flop as KQ (except KQ has more equity against hands that beat it) and everyone wants to dump KQ here lightening fast but they're shoving AA?

Not sure why you'd donk AA here on the turn when your opponent is soooo likely to fire his entire range at that card.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AQ, AA might play this way, maybe I was looking to get it all in on the 'safe' turn but missed my c/r with a set. Point is, his range is filled with lots of air and second or third pairs even his tp hands are weak here and will often just not want to call off that last half buy-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd much rather donk the turn with AQ/AA than try to c/r with it, and I think most good players would too. I also expect AA to maybe shove a fair amount on flop, being OOP, and he could fold AQ on flop.

I dunno, still seems pretty narrow. When you consider the range, and what percentage of that range is taking this line on all 3 streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA is the same hand on the flop as KQ (except KQ has more equity against hands that beat it) and everyone wants to dump KQ here lightening fast but they're shoving AA?

Not sure why you'd donk AA here on the turn when your opponent is soooo likely to fire his entire range at that card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost always see a TAG reraise all in with AA on any draw board, regardless of the exact texture of it.

I think he can have any random flush OESD a lot, and I don't think he'd bet the turn with it that much. The other strong hands will want to get it in regardless.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont think anyone mentioned 99 surely this is in his range looks like the sort of bet hes a big hand but is trying to protect it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. He bets that 100% of the time on the turn.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

meh, I'm sure you're right. Just kind of odd that everyone wants to dump this hand so fast on the flop but AA is a quick shove for all of them.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
meh, I'm sure you're right. Just kind of odd that everyone wants to dump this hand so fast on the flop but AA is a quick shove for all of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your statement about equity vs. hands that beat you is misleading. With AA, there are more hands that you beat, specifically KQ and AQ.

These are only "the hands that beat you (KQ)" (or tie), and excluding Q9 because it's unlikely:


Board: Js 9s Qd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.213% 56.69% 00.52% 124602 1140.00 { JJ, 99, AQs, KQs, KTs, QJs, J9s, T8s, AQo, KQo }
Hand 1: 42.787% 42.27% 00.52% 92898 1140.00 { AA }


---

31,680 games 0.079 secs 401,012 games/sec

Board: Js 9s Qd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 70.551% 60.62% 09.93% 19206 3144.50 { JJ, 99, AQs, KQs, KTs, QJs, J9s, T8s, AQo, KQo }
Hand 1: 29.449% 19.52% 09.93% 6185 3144.50 { KcQs }

Clearly, your equity vs. these hands is way higher with AA.

Yes, your equity vs the hands that beat AA is higher when you have KQ, but who cares? Your equity is bad either way vs. those hands and I don't think that should be the deciding factor. Rather, total equity is.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

no, it's not really misleading at all put in the context of the entire discussion.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
no, it's not really misleading at all put in the context of the entire discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT?

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

I stand corrected

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

Don't forget we are 160BBs deep. And yes obviously folding would of made my life easier, but I felt like I was ahead and was going to c/r all in on a lot of turns. The ace hit and im not sure if its a good card or a bad card.

I think there's merit in a combo bet on the river as well. There aren't too many worse hands that call, so if we do bet the river, I think it needs to be a blocking bet mixed with a bluff, but im not sure if he'll fold QJ or the likes so it's hard to say.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
no, it's not really misleading at all put in the context of the entire discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, wait. You supplied some context that AA had less equity than KQ here. Or you made it sound like that. I refuted this.

What context are you referring to?

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

you're really adding a lot of value to this discussion by focusing on the irrelevant.

The only thing that mattered in my statement as it pertained to the context in which it was made is that when KQ is behind it has more equity than AA does when it's behind.

I was specifically questioning why KQ is an auto-muck and AA is an auto-shove on this flop. I thought that was clear.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

I think your play is fine. You could fold flop, but I don't hate the call.

I was originally going to say c/c river to snap off his missed spades. But now that I think about it, he probably has a hand like JT or KsQs or something (Asxs also possible). So I like a bet/fold. c/f is also worth considering.

Re: One of the toughest hands I\'ve played - 200NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
you're really adding a lot of value to this discussion by focusing on the irrelevant.

The only thing that mattered in my statement as it pertained to the context in which it was made is that when KQ is behind it has more equity than AA does when it's behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, when I said that you're statement was misleading, what I really meant is that this cute little factoid is, in fact, the irrelevant part.

You're basically saying that villain's range would be different (and worse for you) if you had AA than if you had KQ (i.e. that what YOU hold influences HIS actions). This might be true if you had some reason to believe your opponent puts you squarely on AA. It isn't true of any normal poker hand.

Your equity is higher vs. his range for raising this flop with AA than if you had KQ. That's what matters.