Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

My win$wsf is only 39%. Judging from what Luegofuego said in The Well in the small stakes forum, 39 is way too low, and it should be around 46%, which is huge to me.

What are the main factors that contribute to a higher win$wsf? Right now, I know that I have to cbet more flops, cbet more 3bet flops, and double barrel more (which I very rarely do). What are some other ways of increasing the times I win money when I see the flop?

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

stop worrying about stats so much

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

I don't dwell on it, but a bad stat is indicative of leaks in my game, is it not?

I want to do everything I can to improve my bottom line.

Sorry Kratzer, but I hate the advice that just tells people to "don't worry about it." It's not how we improve.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

Only stat you have to worry about is PTBB/100.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

stats theoretically are important. However the problem is is that most people dont understand the true extent of variance and the sample size needed to make variance minuscule. And even once you have a good enough sample size then you have to take into account that over that sample your game has probably changed a lot so the individual stats aren't all that important.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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double barrel more (which I very rarely do).

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seems like you know what your problem is.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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stats theoretically are important. However the problem is is that most people dont understand the true extent of variance and the sample size needed to make variance minuscule. And even once you have a good enough sample size then you have to take into account that over that sample your game has probably changed a lot so the individual stats aren't all that important.

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This isn't a discussion of whehther or not individual stats are important. The point is: I stand to benefit by looking deeper into my game than if I sit by and say "oh, that's just variance, it probably doesn't matter." If you want to chalk up possible problematic areas in your game as "variance," I guess I really can't convince you otherwise.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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double barrel more (which I very rarely do).

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seems like you know what your problem is.

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Yes, I think the double barrel is one of the bigger things I need to work on.

But what else? I'd like to break this down..

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

Push every flop you see.

Or don't worry about it and try to play every hand as +EV as possible and let those stats take care of themselves.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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I don't dwell on it, but a bad stat is indicative of leaks in my game, is it not?

[/ QUOTE ]Barely
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Sorry Kratzer, but I hate the advice that just tells people to "don't worry about it." It's not how we improve.

[/ QUOTE ] You won't improve this way (or you will barely improve). It's almost impossible to pinpoint leaks by just looking at stats, that's why you get this response so often and that's why higher stakes players don't really bother discussing it. Like 99% of missed or negative EV comes from individual bad decisions, not from 'general' things. Work on your reasoning for making each play instead of perceived trends in your game.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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stop worrying about stats so much

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Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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double barrel more (which I very rarely do).

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seems like you know what your problem is.

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Yes, I think the double barrel is one of the bigger things I need to work on

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see, you're thinking about this the wrong way. do the right things right and the numbers will work themselves out. if you find that you aren't doing something a lot when you could profitably be doing it more, do it more.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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Sorry Kratzer, but I hate the advice that just tells people to "don't worry about it." It's not how we improve.

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In a vaccum, most stats don't mean [censored]. What games do you play? How many hands have you played? blah blah blah. How do people comment without any more details (other than the obvious "double brl more").

My W$WSF at 1/2 was 40, and I don't feel bad about it. It worked for me in those games. At 2/4, it's been going up over a relatively small sample, which makes sense to me.

Your time is better spent looking at hands, not looking at stats.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

work out where their range is weak and then bet/raise more

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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I don't dwell on it, but a bad stat is indicative of leaks in my game, is it not?

[/ QUOTE ]Barely
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Sorry Kratzer, but I hate the advice that just tells people to "don't worry about it." It's not how we improve.

[/ QUOTE ] You won't improve this way (or you will barely improve). It's almost impossible to pinpoint leaks by just looking at stats, that's why you get this response so often and that's why higher stakes players don't really bother discussing it. Like 99% of missed or negative EV comes from individual bad decisions, not from 'general' things. Work on your reasoning for making each play instead of perceived trends in your game.

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this is basically what i meant too. Stats just dont mean a whole lot. Post hands, find people to discuss hands with, exchange sweat sessions, join cardrunners, etc. Analyzing stats wont help you improve a whole lot unless they are extremely bad like say you are 50/0 preflop or something

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

I just posted the following in the ssnl [censored] thread to another poster on this issue:

My interpretation of those stats is that a combination like yours (low when seeing flop/high at showdown) correlates with missing bluffing and semibluffing opportunites and with playing marginal hands too weakly (both folding the best hand too often and getting to showdown with the best hand too often (rather than valuebetting thinner, which leads to not being called some of the time you have the best hand)). It also might mean you are seeing more multiway flops than someone with different stats. This isn't necessarily bad and could be entirely a function of proper adjustments to the way your particular opponents play preflop, but it may mean you are missing preflop 3bet and squeeze opportunities.

My numbers are significantly higher/lower than yours (~42/52) and I'd still rather they be 44+/51-. It should go without saying that playing good poker leads to "good" statistics, not the other way around.

Also, the types of mistakes your opponents make at lower stakes versus higher stakes (in particular, calling/paying off too much) make it so that perfect play at 1/2 would lead to lower w$wsf than at 2/4, and so on up the ladder. More people seeing the flop and fewer opponent squeezes/3bets at 1/2 than 2/4+ contributes as well.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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I don't dwell on it, but a bad stat is indicative of leaks in my game, is it not?

[/ QUOTE ]Barely
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Sorry Kratzer, but I hate the advice that just tells people to "don't worry about it." It's not how we improve.

[/ QUOTE ] You won't improve this way (or you will barely improve). It's almost impossible to pinpoint leaks by just looking at stats, that's why you get this response so often and that's why higher stakes players don't really bother discussing it. Like 99% of missed or negative EV comes from individual bad decisions, not from 'general' things. Work on your reasoning for making each play instead of perceived trends in your game.

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this is basically what i meant too. Stats just dont mean a whole lot. Post hands, find people to discuss hands with, exchange sweat sessions, join cardrunners, etc. Analyzing stats wont help you improve a whole lot unless they are extremely bad like say you are 50/0 preflop or something

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I think a lot of people are misunderstanding my intentions. I'm not working to improve these stats alone. I'm looking at stats as indicators of things I might need to pay attention to in my game because they may be leaks.

For example, if my attempt to steal % is low, I will take note of that and PAY ATTENTION to when I should steal so that I can begin to learn the most +EV situations when it comes to blind stealing.

Likewise, if my win$wsf is low, I would like to know the things I might need to PAY ATTENTION to so I can begin to recognize which situations are +-EV and FROM THERE, I can gain more insight into how best to play each hand.

Right now, I'm fairly satisfied with my game, but I'd like to improve it still.

I dont' have the time to go through EACH HAND and ask, "jee, have I played this the most +EV.. maybe I'll post it on 2+2." However, if I know of certain areas of my game that MAY be weak, I can pay more attention to it and then KNOW what hands to post up on 2+2.

I'm trying to find out where my consistent bad habits are. Using stats is a good starting point to find out. No one has time to go through every hand and think it through.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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work out where their range is weak and then bet/raise more

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this implies so much I love it

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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Sorry Kratzer, but I hate the advice that just tells people to "don't worry about it." It's not how we improve.

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In a vaccum, most stats don't mean [censored]. What games do you play? How many hands have you played? blah blah blah. How do people comment without any more details (other than the obvious "double brl more").

My W$WSF at 1/2 was 40, and I don't feel bad about it. It worked for me in those games. At 2/4, it's been going up over a relatively small sample, which makes sense to me.

Your time is better spent looking at hands, not looking at stats.

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I am not looking for comments on MY game. I'm looking for what contributes to winning a hand when any player sees the flop. Time is DEFINITELY NOT better spent on looking at hands because I would have to look through TWO THOUSAND hands after each session. Further more I wouldn't even know what to look for if I don't know WHERE the problem lies.


If stats don't mean [censored], then go delete poker tracker. Seeing as how you should only depend on analyzing each hand to gain insight into your game, then there wouldn't be any use at all for statistics, is there? After all, they'll "take care of themselves," right?

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE you should both think about your game while supplementing your analysis with statistics to learn more about how you're playing? ..something you wouldn't have otherwise known you were weak in?

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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stop worrying about stats so much

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Is this really true? My style is a lot more passive (AF 2 overall, like 4/2/1 street by street) and I call a lot in the SB and my win $ see flop is like 38, yet I've been winning at >5bb/100 over >150k hands. And I always feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

So far, Jamougha and LearnedfromTV are the only ones who've posted anything of value. Thanks you two for contributing to this thread.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

Think it through while playing, review is only a very small part of it. If you can't think through nearly every single decision you make while playing, cut down on the # of tables until you can. It's easy to know what to look for: any time you can't say to yourself "I did x because of assumption 1,2,3... and x thus maximises EV here" you should sit down and figure out the best line, or post the hand. The point is that this is the best way of figuring out where your leaks are: noticing lines you take that are not backed up by clear, through reasoning. Stats are so vague that they are (almost) useless in pinpointing where leaks are, unless they are crazily out of whack.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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Only stat that matters is PTBB/100.

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Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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stop worrying about stats so much

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Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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Only stat that matters is PTBB/100.

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Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

You don't really have to check all the hands in the session... it would be great to do that, but in the real world is difficult. However don't take the advice these people are giving you lightly. I don't post often here, but I read a lot, and these players are showing you how they think and play. If they say "do not worry" so vehemently, that's something.

Now, if you want a leak, I can pinpoint that you are not taking your 2k sessions seriously. You need to get in there after the session and as Requin said, give an overwhole to your thought process.

You don't have to replay all 2k hands, but all of those where you felt lost, or where you think you might have done something different, like value betting a certain amount on the river. Those are all important things to check.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

Put a man to a decision for all of his chips.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

Whats so funny is that i realized i have no idea what my % is for this stat, yet OP is so worried if it is a few % too low or high, lol

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

Why is everyone being so retarded about this? W$wsf has meaning; it gives information about your overall gameplan, especially when related to other statistics. "Just review individual hands" is a dumb mantra that gets thrown around here too much. There are plenty of other ways to improve your understanding of your game and how to beat the games you play in, and studying/understanding pokertracker stats is one of them.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

Chaser man be happy, you've only got 17 posts and your first reply was from KRANTZ! It doesnt get much better than that.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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You don't really have to check all the hands in the session... it would be great to do that, but in the real world is difficult. However don't take the advice these people are giving you lightly. I don't post often here, but I read a lot, and these players are showing you how they think and play. If they say "do not worry" so vehemently, that's something.

Now, if you want a leak, I can pinpoint that you are not taking your 2k sessions seriously. You need to get in there after the session and as Requin said, give an overwhole to your thought process.

You don't have to replay all 2k hands, but all of those where you felt lost, or where you think you might have done something different, like value betting a certain amount on the river. Those are all important things to check.

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The issue isn't that I'm not reviewing my hands. Of course I do. Everyone does.

The issue is I'm trying to find out what other FACTORS can be contributing to my winrate. I'm trying to find out my bad habits when I play, and stats is one way to shed some light on that. I think even you would agree that checking individual sessions will not necessarily tell you about all the bad habits you're making, ESPECIALLY when you don't even know in what areas your bad habits lie. A lot of people are missing the point here.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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Whats so funny is that i realized i have no idea what my % is for this stat, yet OP is so worried if it is a few % too low or high, lol

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I'm glad you're proud of your ignorance. I'm not so much worried about it as I am using it as a possible indicator for leaks in my game. Good for you if that stat is a complete non-issue for you. As for me, I like to take advice from high stake players like Luegofuego (a 10/20 regular) who made a big deal out of win$wsf. Read his The Well thread in the small stakes forum.

I'm a little taken back by how little value you guys place on statistics. You guys seem to throw around the word "variance" like some kind of universal get-out-of-jail-free card. Bad winrate? Variance! Low aggression? Variance! High vpip? Variance! Folds BB to steal too often? Variance! Not taking down enough pots when you see the flop? VARIANCE!!!

I really hope for all your sake that you consider using stats as a tool to improve your game. It's right there in front of you! Why not use it? Sure, it could be "variance," and of course it changes in time depending on how your game evolves. But could it also be likely that you simply have A LEAK? Why not be more critical of yourself instead of dismissing possible statistical indicators as VARIANCE? Of course don't depend on it. Still evaluate your big hands, questionable plays, marginal situations, etc. But I think stats is an excellent supplement.

Despite this thread being filled with completely useless posts except for a couple of posters, I saw some helpful advice. In the future, I'll be putting together a post about taking down pots and recognizing weakness to hopefully spark a worthwhile discussion on this issue.

What I find funny is that a lot of you guys seem to take ptbb/100 as the most valuable stat when it is arguable one most subject to VARIANCE.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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Chaser man be happy, you've only got 17 posts and your first reply was from KRANTZ! It doesnt get much better than that.

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lol inverted. Doublecheck if he's actually KRANTZ...

Of course I'm happy with my game. I have a solid winrate. But that doesn't mean I should stop trying to improve.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

just read posts and think about the game for yourself. just cause aba (omg) says 26/20 is an optimal vpip/pfr doesn't mean its the best style for you. stats are a way to gauge how you play relative to other people, not how you should play. saying you are tyring to get this stat to be what someone else told you it should be shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the methodology in improving at this game, IMO. stats can be useful for gaining additional insight into another player's hand ranges, but if you are determining optimal postflop play off some dumb stat that someone else said it should be who probably plays entirely different limits than you against entirely different opponents with an entirely different gameplan, well then youre probably going about it the wrong way.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

Limp or minraise preflop and raise allin on flop, turn or river. Getting 60% should be easy this way!

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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just read posts and think about the game for yourself. just cause aba (omg) says 26/20 is an optimal vpip/pfr doesn't mean its the best style for you. stats are a way to gauge how you play relative to other people, not how you should play. saying you are tyring to get this stat to be what someone else told you it should be shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the methodology in improving at this game, IMO. stats can be useful for gaining additional insight into another player's hand ranges, but if you are determining optimal postflop play off some dumb stat that someone else said it should be who probably plays entirely different limits than you against entirely different opponents with an entirely different gameplan, well then youre probably going about it the wrong way.

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That's not at all what I use stats for. Reread some of my posts. Nowhere did I say I try to match my stats to a specific value. I agree with you that it's a terrible way to go.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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Only stat that matters is wwsf.

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Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

float more, double barrel more, stab more, bluff and semi bluff more, take more marginal hands to showdown rather than mucking, win more pots. remember you don't have to win every pot but try to take all the ones where no1 is interested

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

heh, some pretty sweet posting by chaser in this thread and some pretty arrogant and silly posting by others. stats DO matter, stats CAN do an excellent job of pinpointing leaks, and variance probably has [censored] all to do with ur crappy wwsf which is probably one of the meaningful stats that will converge fastest. ppl just like to throw around moronic blanket statements that make them look smart that doesnt really apply like "most people dont understand the true extent of variance". stats [censored] ROCK.

Re: Theory post: How do I increase my Win$WSF?
 

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and variance probably has [censored] all to do with ur crappy wwsf which is probably one of the meaningful stats that will converge fastest.

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How many hands does it take before this stats starts to be meaningfull? Thinking of having it in my HUD.