which street
 

CP 30/60 6 handed

1 limp in mid, button raises, hero 3 bets 7c7s from sb and both call

flop: Tc 3h 6c - hero bets, limper calls, button raises, hero 3-bets and both call

turn: 2c - hero checks, limper checks and button bets, hero calls, and limper calls

river: another club, not sure which - hero bets...

limper is awful, not sure on specific tendancies tho

button is 2p2er who i dont know, but he knows i post and also knows the limper is awful

opinions on any of the streets appreciated, thanks

Re: which street
 

wow, that's all really bad.

Re: which street
 

Why exactly are we 3-betting the flop OOP vs these 2 opponents?

Re: which street
 

3bet OOP with 77 to play a 3way pot? No.

bet/3bet the flop? no. Oh, wait, it is T-high and there is a flush draw... OF COURSE!!! no.

Check/call the club turn? no. WAIT! WAIT! the turn was a club and now we have a... a... FLUSH DRAW!!!!!! no.

Bet the club river? no. Wiat, wait.... ITS A VALUE BET!!!!

wait, honestly, was it a value bet or a bluff? Because neither work.

Is this post in response to "shipitpls, you only post hands that you played well."?

Re: which street
 

[ QUOTE ]
CP 30/60 6 handed

1 limp in mid, button raises, hero 3 bets 7c7s from sb and both call

flop: Tc 3h 6c - hero bets, limper calls, button raises, hero 3-bets and both call

turn: 2c - hero checks, limper checks and button bets, hero calls, and limper calls

river: another club, not sure which - hero bets...

limper is awful, not sure on specific tendancies tho

button is 2p2er who i dont know, but he knows i post and also knows the limper is awful

opinions on any of the streets appreciated, thanks

[/ QUOTE ]


you 3bet the flop because you thought the guy had a flush draw. why on earth would you check/call now that it got there?

Re: which street
 

cardsharp, no it wasnt, i had this one typed up day before yesterday but messed up my comp when posting it - ironic though

Re: which street
 

did you win this hand?

btw - preflop is really bad, flop is pretty bad, turn is pretty bad, river is probably very very meh

Re: which street
 

basically, my thought process was different on every street and as a whole just didnt make sense, even when trying to piece it together afterwards...

preflop:
3-bet here is standard for me, the 2p2 was opening a lot of pots with that limper in and it also helps the hand play easier usually

flop:
on the flop i figured i had the best hand a lot and was trying to push limper off 6 outs

turn:
i expected limper to bet if he hit the turn, so when he didnt i expected my flushdraw or pair to be good often enough for a call...

river:
it wasnt really a value bet or a bluff really, maybe a semi bluff i guess, one of those 'i'm calling, so why not bet' lines...

Re: which street
 

i've done the exact same thing in nearly the exact same spot.

yes, this looks spewy, and everyone is ripping on it, but i haven't seen any clear reasoning of why its so bad. its just a tough spot, and most lines are either going to look like a spew, or look weak, with not much in between.

the flop seems fine to me.

I guess you can check/fold the turn because it's still 3-handed at that point, so your club is no good, especially in light of the fact that the limper called the flop 3-bet.

Re: which street
 

What I think about here is how preflop sets up postflop

We have a button who is a good player and a MP who is a bad player. Note that Button is not openraising, so you should consider his "isolation range" (mid Ace+, KT+, QT?, 66+ etc) not his pure steal range. Vs a button openraise or if you have position 3bet 77 is more standard.

The 3-bet preflop does not seem optimal to me because:

You're probably not folding out the bad player - he will often call except with his very worst hands.

And then postflop starts with you, out of position, having initiative with a hand that often wants to checkraise the flop.

Noting that you'll often c/r c/c or c/f flop, you don't mind too much if BB decides to play after you coldcall.

Re: which street
 

you are bet/folding the river im guessing?

just out of curiosity did you end up winning the hand?

Re: which street
 

river was bet/fold, and i'll post results after more feedback...

- do we ever fold out a better flush on that river from the button, maybe 9c9s or even JcTh? - i assume the middle player is calling very lightly, which may make it more difficult for button to overcall with a mid flush... the problem with that thinking is that button knows middle doesnt fold and he closes the action

to me it seems as though turn and river are most awkward, would we rather bet/fold or check/fold turn given that we played preflop and flop as i did... and would we just c/f river or c/c depending on who bets?

Re: which street
 

I'm with MoM. Pre-flop 3-betting eliminates some of the leverage you want to have with this hand; specifically, it eliminates your ability to be the first to react to the pre-flop aggressor. How much easier is this hand to play if you call pre-flop and then can check-raise the flop that you got (facing intermediate players with two cold for protection purposes, while gaining far more clear information about button's hand), rather than playing it the way you did?

As it stands, the pre-flop three-bet commited you (mentally at least) to the flop bet, which implied the three-bet, and so on and so forth...

Re: which street
 

Is it too weak to just fold PF?

Are there metagame considerations? It seems like if button is often isolating the limper really light, we should let go of some of our more marginal hands to encourage him to continue doing it, then we can punish him later when we have a better hand and position on him (and we'll have position every time we're not SB).

Re: which street
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it too weak to just fold PF?

Are there metagame considerations? It seems like if button is often isolating the limper really light, we should let go of some of our more marginal hands to encourage him to continue doing it, then we can punish him later when we have a better hand and position on him (and we'll have position every time we're not SB).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that with 77 I want to be involved in the pot, particularly considering both the limper and the isolater may have weak holdings. Blind structure is also worth considering: I'm not sure how the Canterbury blinds play, but in a $20/$30 blind structure, the improved effective odds from the bigger small blind pushes this to a comfortable call for me.

Re: which street
 

[ QUOTE ]
river was bet/fold, and i'll post results after more feedback...

- do we ever fold out a better flush on that river from the button, maybe 9c9s or even JcTh? - i assume the middle player is calling very lightly, which may make it more difficult for button to overcall with a mid flush... the problem with that thinking is that button knows middle doesnt fold and he closes the action

to me it seems as though turn and river are most awkward, would we rather bet/fold or check/fold turn given that we played preflop and flop as i did... and would we just c/f river or c/c depending on who bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually made a post that this might be the only debatable street, but I dont see it so I guess it didnt go through. Anyway, you might get bb to make a bad call thereby forcing out a better flush, but if 2p2er is thinking he wont be able to put you on the A or K since you checked the turn w/ no reason to fear the flush so expect to get called w/ Q,J and maybe Tc. If I found myself in this spot I think I would fire the river for sure.

Re: which street
 

the game is a 3/2 chip structure with a passive bb, so i do think folding is out... but flat calling is certainly not

Re: which street
 

Ah, I missed that SB is 2/3 of a bet - nevermind.

Re: which street
 

to mitch and others who like betting the river,
what are the chances that both of the other guys in this hand can't beat the 7-hi flush? What are the chances one of them will bet a worse hand? I think c/f is best play there.

I think pf is an easy 3bet and the flop is an easy non-3bet. The turn is sorta tricky though...

Re: which street
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like if button is often isolating the limper really light, we should let go of some of our more marginal hands to encourage him to continue doing it, then we can punish him later when we have a better hand and position on him (and we'll have position every time we're not SB).

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure this is wrong. Even if we assume this guy has overly wide isolating range AND will immediately return to more optimal pf strategy after a single 3-bet by us, you will still be very lucky to find a situation with more than 2/3 sb value than in this spot. Remember this is fullring live so you may see this situation come up only 5 times during this session anyhow.

Re: which street
 

[ QUOTE ]
to mitch and others who like betting the river,
what are the chances that both of the other guys in this hand can't beat the 7-hi flush? What are the chances one of them will bet a worse hand? I think c/f is best play there.

I think pf is an easy 3bet and the flop is an easy non-3bet. The turn is sorta tricky though...

[/ QUOTE ]

My original thinking is not that we are ahead but that given the read we have on bb, he should be calling w/ alot of hands that might not include a club. Now we really need to know that bb is terrible, real terrible to make this bet, but I think we can put enough pressure on the button to make himthrow 99c or even the Jc.

I dont think the pf 3bet is as bad as others are making it out to be, but with super loose limper in I would just call.

Re: which street
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems like if button is often isolating the limper really light, we should let go of some of our more marginal hands to encourage him to continue doing it, then we can punish him later when we have a better hand and position on him (and we'll have position every time we're not SB).

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure this is wrong. Even if we assume this guy has overly wide isolating range AND will immediately return to more optimal pf strategy after a single 3-bet by us, you will still be very lucky to find a situation with more than 2/3 sb value than in this spot. Remember this is fullring live so you may see this situation come up only 5 times during this session anyhow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed the fact that it was a 2/3 SB when I posted that - I agree that it's too much value to give up.

As to the other point, OP did say "the 2p2 was opening a lot of pots with that limper in", and since OP is to his immediate left we will have to opportunity to 3-bet him next in a lot. I agree, though, that a single 3-bet isn't going to change things that much, so it's probably only a consideration in the most marginal of situations.