Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

I've read Super System II but found the PLO section fairly vague and a bit proscriptive in terms of starting hand requirements in Omaha. Do any of you know of a website that has a few paragraphs and a kind of chart that assigns a relative value of certain hands preflop in Omaha? I understand that there are no huge favorites but I would like to refine my hand values so I know what to enter a pot with and what not to. Also, any random tips you folks have to post would be greatly appreciated as well. Thank you in advance

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

It's extremely dangerous to think of omaha hands as rankable.
What you need to do is start thinking about hands in terms of how the 4 cards show synergy with each other.

Omaha is a game where the hand rankings are so much closer together, and indeed the value of a hand increases or decreases depending on the other hands in play.

Sometimes 6h 7s 8h 9s will be the best hand in omaha 3 way against two people with AA. Sometimes it will be screwed over big time by 7h 8s 9h Ts.

Just asking for rankings doesn't help your game too much. What you play should be dependant on the players around you.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

dont know of any but i know the biggest leak in my game when i started was playing stuff like QQxx-TTxx etc for a raise - problem is if you hit you might hit second trips, and these cards on flops make an awful lot of wraps for people. flops you are happpy with are ones like Q72, and you are never getting paid in this spot as everyone will have missed, so your implied odds are shot.

Just play the really obvious hands outlined in SS, and also remember your position is almost if not more important than the cards you are holding

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

You make no sense. You say that position is more important than the cards you are holding, then you say you wont play QQ to TT.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

i didnt say i wouldnt play QQ-TT, but i would stear clear of hands like that in hindsight when i first started learning the game.

As your game evolves you realise that these hands have some value in the right circumstances, but as you correctly pointed out, you cant just read a chart of starting hands and say 'always play QQ72, it has +ev' as you would want to assess a number of in-game factors before making a decision to play/pass a hand like that in Omaha

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

ah and guess what! i look on the 'Ribbo stats aces' thread and you have a leak with TT!! why? cause you lost a couple of big hands! why? cause when you flop a set, it will either be up against a higher set, or as Tens are the most common used cards for a straight, you will get busted by a monster wrap!!

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Incorrect, one was a coin flip which didn't involve my Tens.

*** TURN *** [Js 5s 6d] [Kd]
Ribs: checks
ROXY24: bets $847
Ribs: raises $743 to $1590 and is all-in
ROXY24: calls $743
*** RIVER *** [Js 5s 6d Kd] [4h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ribs: shows [Ks Jc Th Td] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
ROXY24: shows [Ac 7d As 3s] (a straight, Three to Seven)
ROXY24 collected $4027 from pot

One was this total fail of an opponent shoving a flush draw on the turn...

OMAHA POT LIMIT ($10/$20)
Table 'Cremona III' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: ACTIONJACK1 ($2774.50 in chips)
Seat 2: SuicideBomb ($7715 in chips)
Seat 3: joodang ($2017 in chips)
Seat 4: Ribs ($3466 in chips)
Seat 5: saphire1 ($1920 in chips)
Seat 6: OPETTAJA ($3386 in chips)
Seat 7: jajejijoju ($1941 in chips)
Seat 8: virus1975 ($3049.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Cabbagehead ($5258 in chips)
ACTIONJACK1: posts small blind $10
SuicideBomb: posts big blind $20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ribs [Th Tc Ad Kh]
joodang: folds
Ribs: calls $20
saphire1: calls $20
OPETTAJA: calls $20
jajejijoju: raises $40 to $60
virus1975: calls $60
Cabbagehead: folds
ACTIONJACK1: folds
SuicideBomb: folds
Ribs: calls $40
saphire1: calls $40
OPETTAJA: calls $40
*** FLOP *** [7s Jh Ts]
Ribs: checks
saphire1: checks
OPETTAJA: checks
jajejijoju: bets $60
virus1975: calls $60
Ribs: raises $340 to $400
saphire1: folds
OPETTAJA: folds
jajejijoju: calls $340
virus1975: folds
*** TURN *** [7s Jh Ts] [3c]
Ribs: bets $1187
jajejijoju: raises $294 to $1481 and is all-in
Ribs: calls $294
*** RIVER *** [7s Jh Ts 3c] [5s]
Ribs said, "nh"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ribs: shows [Th Tc Ad Kh] (three of a kind, Tens)
jajejijoju: shows [Ac 6s 4h As] (a flush, Ace high)
jajejijoju collected $4149 from pot
Ribs said, "good raise"
jajejijoju said, "soz"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4152 | Rake $3
Board [7s Jh Ts 3c 5s]
Seat 1: ACTIONJACK1 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: SuicideBomb (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: joodang folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Ribs showed [Th Tc Ad Kh] and lost with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 5: saphire1 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: OPETTAJA folded on the Flop
Seat 7: jajejijoju showed [Ac 6s 4h As] and won ($4149) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 8: virus1975 folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Cabbagehead (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

And one was me taking a river shot against a maniac, who made a horrendous flop raise as he always does and hit his gutshot on me.

OMAHA POT LIMIT ($5/$10)
Table 'Sodankyla' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: TTIGGER ($110 in chips)
Seat 2: TheDummy ($2183 in chips)
Seat 3: catoana ($454.25 in chips)
Seat 4: lagalaga ($1073 in chips)
Seat 5: Ribs ($1107 in chips)
Seat 6: katgam ($1563.40 in chips)
Seat 8: Pupu II ($897.50 in chips)
Ribs: posts small blind $5
katgam: posts big blind $10
tavira: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ribs [Kd Ts Tc 4d]
Pupu II: folds
TTIGGER: folds
TheDummy: raises $10 to $20
catoana: calls $20
lagalaga: calls $20
Ribs: calls $15
katgam: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [3d 4h 4c]
Ribs: bets $60
katgam: folds
TheDummy: folds
catoana: folds
lagalaga: raises $100 to $160
Ribs: calls $100
*** TURN *** [3d 4h 4c] [6d]
Ribs: checks
lagalaga: bets $160
Ribs: calls $160
*** RIVER *** [3d 4h 4c 6d] [7h]
Ribs: bets $737
lagalaga: calls $733 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ribs: shows [Kd Ts Tc 4d] (three of a kind, Fours)
lagalaga: shows [7s 8c 5s 5c] (a straight, Four to Eight)
lagalaga collected $2203 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2206 | Rake $3
Board [3d 4h 4c 6d 7h]
Seat 1: TTIGGER folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: TheDummy folded on the Flop
Seat 3: catoana folded on the Flop
Seat 4: lagalaga (button) showed [7s 8c 5s 5c] and won ($2203) with a straight, Four to Eight
Seat 5: Ribs (small blind) showed [Kd Ts Tc 4d] and lost with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 6: katgam (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: Pupu II folded before Flop (didn't bet)

But hey, keep telling me that TT is a bad hand.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

more so in most other games, position in omaha is extremely important. I think it even mentions this in super system II. Some hands are playable when you are in a certain position, while others are not.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

In response to your question, there is one:

Poker Listings

It includes beginners advice and the "Top 30" starting hands. It also has advice about what hands to raise with and what hands to call with. I believe it assumes a full table 9-10 handed game. The advice is summerized as follows:

Top 30 Summery:
(All double suited)

AA
Ks+[Qs-Ts]
Qs+[Js-9s]
JsTs
(In other words, any 2P >=Ts plus Qs9s)
JJT9
AAJT
KQJT
Ks,Qs +2>=T

Raise with:

Top 30 Always if SS or DS, usually if not
AK +1>=T SS Axs
wrap (all cards) >=5 DS
gap >=5 DS (not top gap)
Ks DS

Limp with:

AQ w/ 1>=T Axs
wrap >=4
Axs + 2con
gap >=5 (not top gap)

These are their recomendations, and I take no responsibility for your results if you use them without applying other considerations.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's extremely dangerous to think of omaha hands as rankable.
What you need to do is start thinking about hands in terms of how the 4 cards show synergy with each other .

Omaha is a game where the hand rankings are so much closer together, and indeed the value of a hand increases or decreases depending on the other hands in play.

Sometimes 6h 7s 8h 9s will be the best hand in omaha 3 way against two people with AA. Sometimes it will be screwed over big time by 7h 8s 9h Ts.

Just asking for rankings doesn't help your game too much. What you play should be dependant on the players around you.

[/ QUOTE ]
VNH sir....excellent post.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

horrible advice, that's how to be utterly transparent with how you play. Raise any playable hand on the button, any playable hand 1 or 2 off the button, limp call any playable hand from early. Fold everything else.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Thanks for all the input. I have heard about tens (and fives) having more value when they DON'T flop a set because they act as blockers against the people out there with wrap draws and such. Then again, on a T-rag-rag flop I could see a set of Tens having some value. I will take all this info into consideration and I guess just work on my game some more with micro-limit practice, maybe some low limit if I can afford to. I'm also trying to transition from tourneys to cash games so there's a lot to work on right now. Also, someone sent me a bunch of PLO articles which I appreciate very much.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Dont get fooled by TXX flops, the XX will ALWAYS make a straight draw possible, same with AXX flops

thats why sets of tens get busted so often

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont get fooled by TXX flops, the XX will ALWAYS make a straight draw possible, same with AXX flops

thats why sets of tens get busted so often

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't the same concept apply to jacks (and fours)?

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont get fooled by TXX flops, the XX will ALWAYS make a straight draw possible, same with AXX flops

thats why sets of tens get busted so often

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant. Pointless advice.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

yeah im not too keen on jacks either! 4's dont bother me cause im not playing 44xx for set value. my point is your TTT will get run down by big straight wraps alot more often than KKK, so playing a TTxx hand for set value alone isnt such a great idea imo

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah im not too keen on jacks either! 4's dont bother me cause im not playing 44xx for set value. my point is your TTT will get run down by big straight wraps alot more often than KKK, so playing a TTxx hand for set value alone isnt such a great idea imo

[/ QUOTE ]

No it wont get run down "A lot more". Stop making things up from the top of your head.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

It wouldn't necessarily apply to Jacks or Fours, though it might depending on the straight draw. The thing is, a straight MAY need an Ace to complete it, but ALL straights contain either a Five or Ten. Not all straights contain a Four or Jack. Consider:

Lowest straight w/ a 5: A-2-3-4-5
Highest w/ a 5: 5-6-7-8-9
Lowest w/ a T: 6-7-8-9-T
Highest w/ a T: T-J-Q-K-A

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Changing the subject slightly. If you have T5 in your hand in a holdem game, by the time you see the river, you can make every possible straight apart from one. Which is it?

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

QKA23 obv

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

There's a genuine answer. Think about it!

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

56789

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Blah. Too easy.

Ok, another holdem one. Hand A is ahead of hand B on the turn (i.e. if they were to go to showdown on the turn, A would win). However, there is no river card where hand A can win the pot. What could A and B be?

If that's too easy again, what's the worst possible starting hand where you can flop the absolute nuts and be guaranteed to be never outdrawn?

I've got a few more if RT keeps on hitting these out the park.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

1. 32 vs. 22 on AAKK board

2. 26s

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]

No it wont get run down "A lot more". Stop making things up from the top of your head.

[/ QUOTE ]

no need to get shirty just cause you got a leak with TTT [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. 32 vs. 22 on AAKK board

2. 26s

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Incorrect
2. Correct

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

You're leveling me.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Sorry, I didnt' look at it properly. You're right, that's another way for it to work. Standard example though is A3 vs A2 on AKK2 board.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It wouldn't necessarily apply to Jacks or Fours, though it might depending on the straight draw. The thing is, a straight MAY need an Ace to complete it, but ALL straights contain either a Five or Ten. Not all straights contain a Four or Jack.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm pretty sure it applies to jacks and 4s and that the second part of what you said is irrelevant.

The original statement was that Txx flops always contain possible straight draws. The same is true of all Jxx flops.

However, Ribbo is correct that this isn't really something to take into heavy consideration. After all, the only flops that DON'T contain possible straight draws are Q72, K72, K82 and K83.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Oh and here is one for Wazz, or whoever else thinks they know their stuff.

Which two unique hold em hands have the closest equity heads-up preflop? By unique, I mean no 77 vs 77, Q3d vs Q3s, etc...

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Ah-Kh vs. 2s2c?
I believe it is advantage AKs, by <1%.

Ah-Kh 50.08%
2s-2c 49.92%

.16%...pretty close.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Newp... it's a lot more obscure than that.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

hint, then?

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

As well as having 4 cards with synergy, the other important concept is having a hand that can build the nuts. This is because simple equity isn't the whole story: You need a hand that has some implied odds to hit a monster and get really paid off.

The very strongest hands are thus those that have synergy and multiple nut potential. A small part of the reason is that you have a little bit of preflop equity. However, the main reason they are so powerful is that you can flop massively (big straight draws, set+NFD, etc), and be happy getting the money in as a decent favourite against other good hands.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

Along those lines, I was having a friendly disagreement w/ my brother about a hand I played in a homegame ages ago, before I really knew much of anything about Omaha. K-K-T-T dbl suited, hearts and clubs as I recall, flopped a set of Kings AND set of tens (the latter being useless, naturally) and losing to a broadway straight completed on the turn. My side of the argument was that with so many of the high cards out of the remaining deck the Jack on the turn made a straight slightly less but not altogether unlikely, as it was a table of amateurs (myself included) and any A-Q-x-x hand would probably look good if you were used to Hold'em. My brother's and several other players contention is that somehow my pocket tens there had some sort of implicit value b/c they acted as blockers for someone else to have a straight, when, as I see it, whether I had pocket tens or not one of them hit the board and ended up killing my top set.

BTW, at the time I considered KKTTds to be a monster of a hand preflop but after doing a bit of research on Omaha I found it was not that much of a favorite over many other hands and learned of the speculative nature of Omaha hands before the flop.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
horrible advice, that's how to be utterly transparent with how you play. Raise any playable hand on the button, any playable hand 1 or 2 off the button, limp call any playable hand from early. Fold everything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horrible advice.

That's how to be utterly transparent with how you play.

Shortstacks will own you.

As you can see, there are many factors to consider and it's just not possible for anyone to sum up a complete Omaha strategy in a couple of sentences.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
horrible advice, that's how to be utterly transparent with how you play. Raise any playable hand on the button, any playable hand 1 or 2 off the button, limp call any playable hand from early. Fold everything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horrible advice.
Shortstacks will own you.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, shortstacks do nothing of the sort, ever. They lose, that's why they buy in short. Stop moronically quoting crap Slotboom talks about and go find out for yourself.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL, shortstacks do nothing of the sort, ever. They lose, that's why they buy in short. Stop moronically quoting crap Slotboom talks about and go find out for yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

You think Slotbloom is/was a losing player then?

As for myself, I have tried his strategies against straight forward, non-thinking players such as yourself and it works like a charm. Many players (such as yourself) just don't realize that you need to change your style of play when a shortstack sits directly on your right with the intention of LRRing you often. You can't continue to blindly "raise any playable hand" in LP and not give them a tremendous advantage.

It amazes me that people could be this clueless, but it also makes me happy.

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

AKo AKo T2 with one of each suit from the AK

Re: Good FREE website with Omaha starting hand info?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Which two unique hold em hands have the closest equity heads-up preflop? By unique, I mean no 77 vs 77, Q3d vs Q3s, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Without wasting too much time I came up with

9h 7h 847343 49.49 846370 49.43 18591 1.09 0.500
5s 5c 846370 49.43 847343 49.49 18591 1.09 0.500