\"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

I've heard this a few times recently, but what does it entail, exactly? (yes, this is a bit of a googletard op, but I want different perspectives to explain)

Basically, how does one go about getting into law school? and if undergrad major doesn't have an effect, what does?

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Law School Admissions Office- "We are looking for well-rounded students with academic excellence, diverse interests, leadership skills...."


What really happens is some formula that basically breaks down to LSAT+GPA= Chance of admission. Of course other things factor in, but for most schools it seems to be

40-60% LSAT score

40-60% GPA (some bonus pts. for hard sciences)

2-10% Other


And if you are an underrepresented minority then multiply everything by like a billion.


Majors to avoid: Pre-Law, Communications, Art HIstory

Majors that are good: Bio, Chem, Physics, Math


Everything else doesn't have an impact either way. I was a psych major fwiw, and other than interviewers asking "why psychology" it doesn't matter at all.


In June of your Junior year of college you take the LSAT, the single most important test you've taken in your life up to that point, where a difference of only a few points means the difference between a good school and a toilet, scholarship money or a boot in the ass.

Then you write some standard essays, submit your transcript, and wait.



(Note that law schools get the reported average GPA of your school and major, so they know that a 3.0 in bio is better than a 3.0 in art.


Also, if you can't get into at least a decent school, or you have loads of money, don't bother. I know too many people at schools that cost $150k, but the average graduate makes like 40k.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Great answer, thanks.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Okay, let's say I'm a Junior now (I am), is it too late to sign up for the LSAT?

Remember, I'm just playing with the idea. Never thought of it before, but don't have any other great plans, either.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Not too late, but you're going to want to meet with your school's pre-law adviser and start thinking about a timeline. I think Noah kind of underestimated the importance of the LSAT in admissions. I'd say it's really more like 67/33 LSAT over GPA.

Don't go to law school as just a default, ESPECIALLY if you aren't going to go to a top school (ie, the top 15 or so). Very few graduates from schools ranked below that will ever get a job that justifies the debt/opportunity costs.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

I understand, and thanks for the quick and helpful answers, guys. My one skill in life, though, is standardized tests, and it's making me confident to hear that this is so important. I will start asking an advisor about this tomorrow. Obviously, I'll need to find out more before deciding anything, but we'll see...

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Uh, Comm majors statistically have higher LSAT scores than just about anyone.

edit: Bleh, I can't remember the book I read this in. It was something written by a former admissions officer or law professor or something at USC I believe.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, Comm majors statistically have higher LSAT scores than just about anyone.

edit: Bleh, I can't remember the book I read this in. It was something written by a former admissions officer or law professor or something at USC I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see if this if you could find it. Seems unlikely to me. Maybe they just have more time study for the LSAT since their major is a joke?

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

http://www.uic.edu/cba/cba-depts/eco...grad/table.htm

There's a study I found that does not support what I read in that book at all. The sample size is not huge, but it isn't tiny. I think the study in that book was every applicant USC had over a number of years, which would blow those numbers away, but I'm not sure. I'll try and remember the title.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.uic.edu/cba/cba-depts/eco...grad/table.htm

There's a study I found that does not support what I read in that book at all. The sample size is not huge, but it isn't tiny. I think the study in that book was every applicant USC had over a number of years, which would blow those numbers away, but I'm not sure. I'll try and remember the title.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your remembering the study incorrectly or there is significant sampling bias involved. LSAT scores are correlated pretty heavily with IQ and more specifically the ability to reason logically. Those are both things most communications majors lack.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.uic.edu/cba/cba-depts/eco...grad/table.htm

There's a study I found that does not support what I read in that book at all. The sample size is not huge, but it isn't tiny. I think the study in that book was every applicant USC had over a number of years, which would blow those numbers away, but I'm not sure. I'll try and remember the title.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your remembering the study incorrectly or there is significant sampling bias involved. LSAT scores are correlated pretty heavily with IQ and more specifically the ability to reason logically. Those are both things most communications majors lack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, you have a lot of confidence in comm majors.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Yeah seriously, huge assumptions like that are awful. I'm a Comm major, but it isn't my only one and I also have a minor. The work involved in doing well in the major, at least here, isn't a joke at all. There is a ton of reading and writing involved, and if it's what I'm actually interested in, then why insult?

I'm not remembering the study incorrectly at all; I specfically remember it because I read it when I was considering law school and was surprised that comm was so high and philosophy so low on the list that was in the book. I'm not saying the study is not flawed though; I'll keep looking for it.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Noah,

I've done some research on law school boards and stuff, but I have a few questions.

Why take the LSAT June of Junior year instead of during Senior year?

At what level of law school does it not make sense to go to law school, financially speaking? Anything outside of Tier 1, or are some Tier 2's still worth it? Assuming no scholarship or a modest scholarship.

Hypothetically, would it be worth it to go to law school with a 2.9/165? 3.0/170? 3.2/160? Top 15-20 liberal arts college.

To what extent will law schools forgive a bad freshman year, assuming there is an upward trend? For instance, something like 2.6, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 rounds out rounds at only around 3.25-3.3

What did you do during your summers during college? Do they care if you had internships? I assume it's a minimal plus if you've had good internships, but a negative if you haven't done anything worthwhile outside of school?

Thanks,
Schundler

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Law school in Canada is only like 12k/yr for a decent school.

This is my plan as it is a lot more +EV than in the US.

And sorry, but Communications is the joke degree all the athletes do. Okay it still might be tough to do really well, but it's still communications.

edit: my university's law school tuition is $7,860. top 5ish in the country.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Noah,

I've done some research on law school boards and stuff, but I have a few questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

me > Noah

[ QUOTE ]

Why take the LSAT June of Junior year instead of during Senior year?


[/ QUOTE ]

most law schools have rolling admissions. hence, it's better to apply early. if you want to apply during your senior year, you want to be firing off apps on Oct 1 rather than studying for the lsat.

[ QUOTE ]

At what level of law school does it not make sense to go to law school, financially speaking? Anything outside of Tier 1, or are some Tier 2's still worth it? Assuming no scholarship or a modest scholarship.


[/ QUOTE ]

really depends on what your salary would be with/without law school. this is kind of just a math problem. do some research on average salaries. keep in mind that it is possible to get a pretty kickass job even from a low ranked school, you just have to be top of your class.

[ QUOTE ]

Hypothetically, would it be worth it to go to law school with a 2.9/165? 3.0/170? 3.2/160? Top 15-20 liberal arts college.


[/ QUOTE ]

there are too many intangibles here, but if you have to ask whether or not you should go to law school, the answer is probably that you shouldn't.

[ QUOTE ]

To what extent will law schools forgive a bad freshman year, assuming there is an upward trend? For instance, something like 2.6, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 rounds out rounds at only around 3.25-3.3


[/ QUOTE ]

unless someone here actually knows an admissions officer, this would all be speculation. I'm sure people have anecdotal evidence, but nothing concrete. you can look up what ranges of GPA's particular schools are taking, but that won't help much without an LSAT score.

[ QUOTE ]

What did you do during your summers during college? Do they care if you had internships? I assume it's a minimal plus if you've had good internships, but a negative if you haven't done anything worthwhile outside of school?


[/ QUOTE ]

my guess is this will make almost no difference unless you've done something amazing. having career experience, on the other hand, is different.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why take the LSAT June of Junior year instead of during Senior year?


[/ QUOTE ]

most law schools have rolling admissions. hence, it's better to apply early. if you want to apply during your senior year, you want to be firing off apps on Oct 1 rather than studying for the lsat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aside from just getting in, you need to check what your school's policy is regarding scholarships. I applied way late (January/February), didn't get offered any scholarships, and was frustrated to discover that several of my classmates with significantly worse stats than me had received academic scholarships.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

At what level of law school does it not make sense to go to law school, financially speaking? Anything outside of Tier 1, or are some Tier 2's still worth it? Assuming no scholarship or a modest scholarship.


[/ QUOTE ]

really depends on what your salary would be with/without law school. this is kind of just a math problem. do some research on average salaries. keep in mind that it is possible to get a pretty kickass job even from a low ranked school, you just have to be top of your class.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. I graduated with a degree that required a masters degree to make anything above 20k, so it was an obvious decision for me. I know more than a few people, however, who were making 50k+, didn't get great grades in law school, and are now going to be stuck struggling to find a job that pays close to that, if they find a job at all. Like Jeff said, it is certainly possible to get a good job from a lower ranked school if you rank high, but the problem is it's difficult if not impossible to REALLY know how well you're going to do in law school. Again, anecdotal, but I know quite a few extremely bright people with excellent pre-law school careers who simply did not do well in law school.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

The TRUTH is that law school's couldn't give a [censored] about your GPA as long as it is not entirely mediocre. They don't give very much of a [censored] about your extracirriculars or if you are "interesting." They care about whether you beat your LSAT to the ground, whether you can add some "diversity" (i.e., are you from the midwest or black), and whether you show the propensity to make money as a lawyer. Your major is really not that important because if you can pump [censored] your LSAT and explain why you want to make money through the law, they are gonna want you anyway. So:

1. Score a 170 or above on your LSAT so you can write your own ticket to just about any law school.

2. Write an essay that shows that you are interested in an area of law (and why).

3. Try to get a job at a PRIVATE firm so you can have an idea what the law is really about. I highly recommend this. If I worked in the law for a few months, there is a VERY good chance I wouldn't be a lawyer right now. Try to know what you want from being a lawyer before going to law school.

4. ?????

Cliffnotes: 170+ on LSAT plus show you can make money by reading things = top law school

Barry

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

For example, we just hired as a judicial law clerk someone who majored in theatre. I know an art hisotry major. I have a math degree. Literally, anything.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

im glad this thread is here because I am sort of thinking about this and im not worth my own thread.

quick summary of me. i have been really lazy in college to the point where i actually was forced to take a year off by grades. I am taking a class at the tech school in madison this semester and then abck to uw-madison to graduate with 17 more credits in econ in the spring.

IF I get like a 4.0 spring semester and a 175+ do I have a chance at a tier one school. Furthermore, if I get a 180 do I have a "chance" at harvard or will a 2.2ish overall be an instant no.

Thanks in advance for replies.

Cliff notes : 2.2 gpa. 4.0 last semester 180 lsat harvard - yes/no

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

no chance at top school. yale could fill their class with people with 175+ and 4.0 cum.

Your best shot would be to get a stellar LSAT, get into the best school possible (probably a low to midlevel), then bust your ass and transfer.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

Cliff notes : 2.2 gpa. 4.0 last semester 180 lsat harvard - yes/no

[/ QUOTE ]


highly unlikely. this would basically eliminate GPA from the admissions calculus.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

i dont think ill bother taking the lsat then, im not dying to be a lawyer, it was more, if i could still somehow get into top tier with a 180 then id go but only a top tier otherwise its just not worth the time and effort to me.

thanks for the info.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Apply to a crapload of places, runner. Florida State was the only law school that accepted me and I applied to like 10 Tier 2 schools.

A 2.2 and 180 should get you into the Tier 1, but probably not T14. T14 is the real Tier 1, USNews does not accurately capture the plateauesque decline from 3rd->4th, 14th->15th, and wherever in Tier 2 you stop placing regionally and become TTT.

I'm not sure if it's worth it to try to transfer from my decent school to a T14. Can we tangentize the thread to give me advice?

As payment I offer this:
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3...2176289xd5.jpg

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

runner,

yeah im pretty sure law school is not for you.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if it's worth it to try to transfer from my decent school to a T14. Can we tangentize the thread to give me advice?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd guess that if your grades/other stuff are good enough to get you into a T14, then they're prob. good enough to get you around the same job you'd get from the T14. major consideration would be later on in your career having a better degree for when you switch jobs.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

You make an excellent point. At what point does trying to transfer from a inferior school make sense? As the school quality goes down the academic success required to transfer somewhere good increases.

What drives transfers, then? It probably delays graduation, increases cost of attendance, probably hurts your chances at externship opportunities, etc.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

FWIW, I am at BC and was told that with my stats I'd be a good transfer candidate to NYU or Columbia, with a shot at Harvard.

I decided that the scholarship money I was receiving and the comparable job prospects meant that it didn't make sense for me.

Granted, if I was really gunnin for a SCOTUS clerkship or a teaching position down the line, maybe I would have considered it, but with the exception of a handful of firms, theres not much that I can't at least get my foot in the door.

In addition, despite loving the big names, I think a lot of firms are starting to recognize that being in the top 1% at Cardoza is probably >>>>>> bottom 10% at yale when it comes to ability, motivation, etc.

Of course, if you can transfer to a HYS AND kick ass, then maybe it'd make sense for down the line marketability, but I think a lot of people transfer for the wrong reason.

or maybe i'm just rationalizing my own decisions, but whatever.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
no chance at top school. yale could fill their class with people with 175+ and 4.0 cum.

Your best shot would be to get a stellar LSAT, get into the best school possible (probably a low to midlevel), then bust your ass and transfer.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not entirely correct. The difference between a 170 and 180 LSAT is major, as is the difference between Yale's selectivity and the rest of the T14. One of the unique things about the LSAT is that the last 15 points (25%) of the range separate the top 10% of test-takers, and it gets significantly more top heavy for literally every point above 170.

If the OP could pull a 180 and a 4.0 semester and a good, honest story about how and why he turned things around, he could easily find himself in the running for several T14 law schools and would be a lock for a tier one.

If the OP is going to be waiting until the following fall to apply to law school anyway, he should go to an extra year of undergrad and pad his grades. Spread those 17 credits over 3 semesters with other electives or add a second major, earn a 4.0 this spring and next year and supplement those applications with the continued good grades.

FWIW, I did very poorly when I started college and was also academically suspended like the OP. I had a 3.3 cum after finishing my last 5 semesters at straight 4.0 When I applied my senior year of ugrad around I had a 2.8 with 3 consecutive 4.0 semesters and a 179 LSAT and a good story about turning my life around, and was accepted at several top schools (including Michigan, Chicago and Columbia). I applied again the fall after undergrad and was accepted everywhere I applied save Yale. I graduated from HLS in 2006.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

when I took the LSAT it was impossible to get a 179

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
when I took the LSAT it was impossible to get a 179

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're referring to the old scale, it was far more top heavy. I read a quote years ago in some admissions guide that there were sufficient perfect scores under that scale that the top couple of law schools could fill their entire classes with perfect LSATs, whereas under the new scale there were barely enough perfect scores to field a baseball team.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

HLS2k6,

Serious question...are you black?

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
HLS2k6,

Serious question...are you black?

[/ QUOTE ]

White, middle class, Non legacy.

A urm with my lsat would not be dinged by Yale.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

One of my classes this semester is Mass Media Law and we have a practicing attorney teaching the class.

Seems like every time I am in class I am thinking about what it would be like to be a lawyer, so much that I was actually excited when I saw this thread since I'm majoring in Broadcast Journalism.

I've been doing alright in school mostly just because I was more interested in partying more than I was making straight As.

As a result, my GPA at Middle Tenn State is 3.4 and should increase over the next several semesters (this is my fall semester Junior year).

Is it still too late to think about law school or should I just consider something else?

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

How might it be too late? You can still take LSAT and apply next fall.

I didn't apply for Law School until a year after finishing my undergrad and didn't start until two years after. Oh, and I had a worse GPA too. Do more research and if you think you would be good at Law School and like being a lawyer then go for it. There are successful lawyers who didn't go to top tier schools.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

I'm a junior in college and really have no idea what I want to do postgrad. I have a 2.96 at Duke majoring in economics. Many of my peers have told me that I would do well on the LSAT, including those that are studying for it (obviously the only ones that really matter). My only experience with the test is taking one section of a practice test after a friend asked me for help on a question. I missed one question within the time limit. In general, I test extremely well; this is magnified on standardized tests.

I have thought about law school in the past and even thought about being a lawyer. I don't have a great work ethic which would seem to be a necessity, but do get very attached to things I find interesting, including specific classes. How did you guys that attended/are attending law school decide that this is what you want to do? How long do I have until I need to make up my mind on taking the LSAT? I'm really looking for advice as to why you guys have chosen this route and to become lawyers since I have no idea what I want to do after college.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

CDL,

The last LSAT that I'd take is September of senior year. Right now, I'd focus on getting that GPA up, at least over the 3.0 hump. Even if you take June test, don't worry about it until the new year.



I had no idea what I wanted to do as an UG. I did mock trial and enjoyed it, did moot court and enjoyed it, did a legal internship and thought it was alright. I knew that I didn't want to do anything with psychology (my major), and I didn't want to get some entry level finance/business type job. During college, I did no work and BSd my way through class, and I was looking forward to the academic challenge of law school. That being said, my laziness and procrastinating continued in law school, but was balanced out by my good test taking.





http://eagleionline.com/blog/wp-cont...wingsupply.gif
http://www.nalp.org/assets/881_scurv...rforwebwfn.gif


This last graph is from '06, but it makes my point nicely. The point is, not everyone is going to be making the big bucks as a lawyer. Schools will publish their average salary as 125k or something, but that is an awful # to use, because its not spread out over the range, but is some people with 160k and the rest with 40k, etc.

This is why if you 1)have dreams of big bucks and 2)can't get into a good law school, then maybe law school isn't for you. Only the cream of the crop at lower ranked law schools will get these big firm market paying jobs, but 90% are going to be shelling out 150k, not to mention the lost earning potential of spending three years in school.

Obviously this went off-track, and I can definitely go more in depth, but one thing that I think is lacking in discussion of "should i go to law school" is the job market/practical side. Who care if you can handle the work and would like being a lawyer if you're buried in debt and can't get a job?


If you have any more specific questions, feel free, I check on this thread often.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

As far as shelling out 150k for school I don't think many schools cost that much, especially the lower tier ones. Are you factoring in housing/transport/other living costs? You are going to pay those whether you are in school or not, so they shouldn't factor in. What the opportunity cost is obviously depends on what the other jobs you could get for those three years are, and if you will be making any money while in school.

Why focus so much on the income following graduation and not on the income you can make over the next 25+ yrs as an attorney vs alternative career?

I am not saying everyone should go to Law School and I'm not saying you are mistaken that it (often?) doesn't make financial sense to go lowly ranked school. I am however not close to convinced that you are correct in that assertion. So the supply has gone up.. Is there really a signifigant amount of un/underemployed lawyers out there?

Simply saying it's expensive and supply has gone up and starting pay has a split distribution isn't enough to determine that it financially/practically makes little sense if you don't go to a top school. That is only three reasons to think it won't make sense, seemingly without consideration of the reasons it might make financial sense to do so. I'm sure for some it makes no sense, but some could be giving up money by not to a lower ranked school, no?

I agree that people should carefully consider whether it is really right for them to invest so much in the education. Why are you trying to scare people away unless they can get into a top school? I'm not directing this only at you. There do seem to be others who share the view, and I would like it if they responded.

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

Insta no based on the math if you have a 2.2 even if you get a 180 on the lsat

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

"top 1% at Cardoza is probably >>>>>> bottom 10% at yale when it comes to ability, motivation, etc."

Agreed, but you would ahve to work your ass off to get top 1% at Cadoza whereas you should be able to pull off top 50% pretty much anywhere without even showing up

Re: \"major in anything and go to law school\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, let's say I'm a Junior now (I am), is it too late to sign up for the LSAT?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's never too late to take the LSAT. I was out of school 5 years before I took it.

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, I'm just playing with the idea. Never thought of it before, but don't have any other great plans, either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being good at standardized tests is no reason to go to law school. The only important question is, "DO I ACTUALLY WANT TO WORK AS A LAWYER?"