A2o otb
 

villian is super tag -29/26/2.35 over 340 hands
30-60 on ftp

i open otb with A2o, villan 3 bets, i call.
flop is Qs 9s Ah
he bets i call.
turn is Tc
he checks i bet he crs, i fold.

standard, you guys ever check the turn or call down?
dave

Re: A2o otb
 

if I think he plays good ie he's not taking sevens to showdown I check the turn

Re: A2o otb
 

In general I think your line is best, you gotta extract from KK/KQ/QJ/pocket pairs. this board is pretty semibluff friendly, but there aren't many semibluffing hands he could have that don't have you smoked already. KsTs is like the only I can think of.

It seems like a weird line for him to take though, what are some hands you think he can have with this line? Board is drawy, why would he do this with a big ace, set, or two pair? If he plays the way I think a tag should play then he would bet the turn with all those holdings.

Re: A2o otb
 

Seriously, I don't see how checking the turn could be justifiable at all.

-Michael

Re: A2o otb
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, I don't see how checking the turn could be justifiable at all.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, one time I could see it is if you're pretty sure you're only getting one bet out of villain if he has a worse hand. If this is the case, then it's better to see the river and get the bet(s) or not when you will have additional info. There also may be a case for checking if villain c/r's a lot with a good distribution of bluffs to value raises. In any case though, you will be giving villain a free card sometimes when he would have folded. OP played the hand the way I would have for what that's worth. I don't think you can justify a check without some feel for the player.

Re: A2o otb
 

"In any case though, you will be giving villain a free card sometimes when he would have folded"

do you really think he's going to fold a pair+king? if not what hands are you talking about that aren't 2 outers? I guess 88. if you get called on the turn are you betting the river?

"It seems like a weird line for him to take though"

really? it's a line I take quite a bit and I see it a lot too.

Re: A2o otb
 

Given his aggression isn't it quite resonable to also assume many hands that include a pair and a draw in his raise range? Just curious if most auto fold in this situation?

Re: A2o otb
 

I call down. I think you are probably chopping. My most likely hand in villian's spot is TPNK. Most tags will be looking to b/3b anything stronger and just c/c or b/c 1pr+draw/strong draw types of hands.

Edit: actually, I didn't really consider he pf action in my statement above... maybe his pf 3bet makes this a fold...

Re: A2o otb
 

I don't want to say he's never bluffing here but ok I'll say it he's never bluffing here. Fold.

Re: A2o otb
 

I like the turn bet/fold. I think i check vs. a slightly more passive player.

Some Lag/Tag-ish type guys will check a hand like JT here.

However, I will say that sometimes I do raise this flop. Not necessarily standard for me but it does open up a lot of player's turn c/r range to the point where I am calling down and it's profitable as opposed to calling down and drawing dead.

Re: A2o otb
 

It's a weird (i.e. "bad") line for him to take on THIS board if he has a made hand, in my opinion. It's probably a good play if he has KTs or JTs.

Re: A2o otb
 

Meh i think he can c/r the turn at a high frequency and gets called down by a lot of hands. I think c/r'ing a hand like KT is pretty bad IMO. I don't expect anyone to make this fold here ever and i think playing with that assumption is -ev.

Re: A2o otb
 

the reason i don't like to check is bc. i think it is the lazy line, if this makes sense. there are some semi bluffing hands which are all going to showdown, i don't expect them to check much but perhapse they did. so if we bet and get called by one of these hands we get a bet in with good equity.

2nd given that it is a steal spot he may be ccing 77, K9, and other stuff, bc he realizes that if he bets and gets called he is losing but he also won't fold, so he thinks the best line to get money in good is to cc.

3rd if we check we are always going to call the river, or bet if checked to. i think when he bets the river he is beating us a lot more than when he just calls the turn, and i think, maybe not, but he may fold more hands on the river that he was calling with on the turn. that is more tenious. but basically we always lose 1 bet when beat, and don't alwyas win 1 bet when ahead, and even if he was drawing slim we have given him a free card either way.

finally, i think if he crs he has a big hand and never expects me or anyone else for that matter to ever fold so it is easy to make the correct turn fold, and we get the chance to get 2 bets from hands we are beating and only lose 1 to hands we are losing agaist (obv. this doesn't take into account getting rivered).
dave

Re: A2o otb
 

would you ever cr semi bluff here?

Re: A2o otb
 

i think cring anything but a big hand here is horrible bc no one will ever fold. they will call the turn cr unless they have total air and spit call the river a lot. also you are making it more correct to do so bc you are pumping up the pot, so i think a turn cr here without a rocksolid read is bad. corversely this is why it could be good with a big hand.
dave

Re: A2o otb
 

you makes good points, but some people are off their rockers... or they know that you know all this, hence...

Re: A2o otb
 

I thnk c-r here is stupid with a big hand cause you're missing out on a 3 bet.

Re: A2o otb
 

There is no other way to play this hand, expect maybe a preflop fold.

Re: A2o otb
 

dont see the problem with chking turn

dont think when he chks turn hes planning to cc twice all that often

if theyre cfing 77 they usually find a way to call with it on the river. and u obviously save money when hes cring

i will say this is a retarded board to screwplay turn because like 114 combos just made a straight but ppl suck at poker

Re: A2o otb
 

bet/fold, or check and call river.. calling a riaise on the turn is bad.