KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em
Converted w/ PonksSaver: http://www.pokermentor.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=510
- - - HAND 3370084631 - - -
PreFlop: <font color="blue">HERO</font> is MP with <font color="blue">T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]</font> <font color="blue">K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]</font> (10 Players)
2 <font color="darkred">folds</font>, <font color="blue">HERO</font> <font color="darkgreen">raises</font>, 1 <font color="darkred">fold</font>, MP3 calls, 2 <font color="darkred">folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls,

Flop: (8.00 SB) <font color="black">8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]</font> <font color="red">3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]</font> <font color="blue">2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]</font> (4 Players)
SB <font color="green">bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="blue">HERO</font> calls, MP3 calls,

Turn: (6.00 BB) <font color="blue">Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]</font> (4 Players)
SB <font color="green">bets</font>, BB <font color="darkred">folds</font>, <font color="blue">HERO</font> ???? MP3 still to act

SB is an almost TAG and is aggressive but not overly so. I would figure him as a young guy that has read 1-2 books. He plays fair but over plays his hands sometimes. TAF 1.7

BB is no read

MP3 is uberfish. Doesnt raise without a great hand, bets 2 pair or better generally.

My gut was saying to raise since SB would bet here with A8s, 99, 77. Raising would increase my chances to win the hand and maybe force passive MP3 and semi-TAG to fold. I figured I had about 12 outs with the flush draw and the K or T. Didnt figure the Q hit anyone the way this played out. MP3 calling means pair or draw that simple.

Thoughts?

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

Preflop raise with KTs from mp1 looks borderline to me. Too me, a turn raise looks bad here, but I'm just starting to work on turn semi-bluff raises.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

This is very read dependant. How loose is MP3? Will he fold an 8? Is SB capable of folding 99? 77?

Without any clear reads on this I just call.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

I would raise the flop here to see the rest of the cards for free.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

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I would raise the flop here to see the rest of the cards for free.

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Raising this flop at 2/4 is bad. No one is folding a pair.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

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I would raise the flop here to see the rest of the cards for free.

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Raising this flop at 2/4 is bad. No one is folding a pair.

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And I agree. Plus getting 3-betted would really blow. Well, raising this any where is bad.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

True, but I would rather pay 2SB's than 3SB's to see the river. We have already showed strength preflop, so we can raise here to save a SB. No one will 3-bet without a sick hand and will check the turn after you raise the flop. There are times when you want to raise in order to fold better hands, but other times you do it to save a SB and make the hand easier to play. I'm not saying it's a great play or anything, but you are drawing to 7 outs discounted to 5.5 when you are reverse dominated, so it's not like you are in a great position here. If I were to call this flop, I would plan to check-fold the turn UI. I would rather invest another SB to see both cards to help myself improve instead spending one sb to see just one card. Generally I'm not seeing the river with unimproved overcards unless I have a big draw to a straight or flush.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

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If I were to call this flop, I would plan to check-fold the turn UI.

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Great plan, that's the correct line here.

Raising the flop could result in you paying 3SB only to see the turn with a poor hand.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

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True, but I would rather pay 2SB's than 3SB's to see the river. We have already showed strength preflop, so we can raise here to save a SB. No one will 3-bet without a sick hand and will check the turn after you raise the flop. There are times when you want to raise in order to fold better hands, but other times you do it to save a SB and make the hand easier to play. I'm not saying it's a great play or anything, but you are drawing to 7 outs discounted to 5.5 when you are reverse dominated, so it's not like you are in a great position here. If I were to call this flop, I would plan to check-fold the turn UI. I would rather invest another SB to see both cards to help myself improve instead spending one sb to see just one card. Generally I'm not seeing the river with unimproved overcards unless I have a big draw to a straight or flush.

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Who said anything about a river? Your hand sucks right now. I'd call getting 100-1 with two overs which should be clean, and a BDFD. Raising this flop is retarded. You won't fold any hand with an 8, and really, if a 2 or 3 folds, how does this help you?

Think about it. you flat call the flop, and a hand like 34 calls. Turn is a K, does it even matter if the 3 folds the flop. Or, if the turn is a 7, does is matter, since you need to hit to win?

This kind of fancy play, vs. 3 opponents is destined to fail at 2/4, anyone with an 8 is going to see a SD, which means you need a K, T, or runner runner to win, I'd try to do so cheaply.

If you raise the flop and check the turn, you spend 2sb, better than 3sb, but this is incorrect thinking.

If the turn is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you fold the turn. Spending 1sb.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

If you had a hand worth showing down UI, I'd consider the turn semibluff raise followed by a river checkthrough if you miss. But since K high is practically never going to be good without hitting the river, calling the turn and folding the river UI seems like a much better plan to me.

Based on your read on MP3, I don't think a turn raise gets him to fold any hand that beats you...maybe A high, but even that's iffy.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

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Preflop raise with KTs from mp1 looks borderline to me.

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This is borderline, but if you don't make raises like this every so often it becomes too easy for a good player to key in on your raising range. In truth, I don't really like it here because we have a loose/passive yet to act after us, but that's not to say I'd never do it.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

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Preflop raise with KTs from mp1 looks borderline to me.

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This is borderline, but if you don't make raises like this every so often it becomes too easy for a good player to key in on your raising range. In truth, I don't really like it here because we have a loose/passive yet to act after us, but that's not to say I'd never do it.

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True. If the players behind us are tight enough, this could be good. If they are aggressive and 3-bet frequently, it sucks.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

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True, but I would rather pay 2SB's than 3SB's to see the river. We have already showed strength preflop, so we can raise here to save a SB. No one will 3-bet without a sick hand and will check the turn after you raise the flop. There are times when you want to raise in order to fold better hands, but other times you do it to save a SB and make the hand easier to play. I'm not saying it's a great play or anything, but you are drawing to 7 outs discounted to 5.5 when you are reverse dominated, so it's not like you are in a great position here. If I were to call this flop, I would plan to check-fold the turn UI. I would rather invest another SB to see both cards to help myself improve instead spending one sb to see just one card. Generally I'm not seeing the river with unimproved overcards unless I have a big draw to a straight or flush.

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Who said anything about a river? Your hand sucks right now. I'd call getting 100-1 with two overs which should be clean, and a BDFD. Raising this flop is retarded. You won't fold any hand with an 8, and really, if a 2 or 3 folds, how does this help you?

Think about it. you flat call the flop, and a hand like 34 calls. Turn is a K, does it even matter if the 3 folds the flop. Or, if the turn is a 7, does is matter, since you need to hit to win?

This kind of fancy play, vs. 3 opponents is destined to fail at 2/4, anyone with an 8 is going to see a SD, which means you need a K, T, or runner runner to win, I'd try to do so cheaply.

If you raise the flop and check the turn, you spend 2sb, better than 3sb, but this is incorrect thinking.

If the turn is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you fold the turn. Spending 1sb.

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Looking at it again, I agree. Raising the flop is definitely not a good play, a little bit too rich for such a speculative hand. For a SB you get a chance to catch up to 16 cards on the turn that can help your hand. I stand corrected. The play is to call flop and fold turn UI.

Why the raise.
 

The reason why I did the raise is because I was beating the crap out of the table being at $140. People were starting to fold to my PF raises. I had about 3 decent players here. Normally this is a toss. Dont like KT.

Re: KTs with fish and Almost TAG
 

2 tight in the blinds and 2 loose.

RESULTS!!!!!!!
 

SB I felt had a weak hand and with the image at the table if I raise I could get him to fold his A8s (what I thought he had. If figured is he had a set he would let me bet.

MP3 calling I knew he had a pair but he calls down with crap so much. He calls the flop with to get a chance for a DRAW on the turn. I wasnt sure if a turn raise would knock him out. So I called figuring all my outs were good here.

River came a T and SB checked. I bet and MP3 called showing T2 of clubs for 2 pair. SB also called.