You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

Against a standard not-amazing-yet-still-a-winner tag player, what % of the time should we be doing THIS:


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($979.50)
Hero ($2036.89)
Button ($3712.82)
SB ($2982.33)
BB ($456.25)
UTG ($1084)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $35</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $35, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($85) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $55</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $180</font>



Assuming we take a freecard frequently, I think its close to 100% as long as we dont get semi-bluff-reraised very often ....

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

I like, and i admit i'd almost never do this.
Probably makes you very hard to play and it's got good shania+FE.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

i think this is a pf fold since he is opening utg. but on the flop it depends on his c-bet %. if it is close to 100% and u have a decent image, i think u can show a profit here. i also guess if u do this often enough u can show a profit with a pf call here, though playing so aggro post you'd probably have to render ur game pretty significantly - though i don't know how u play so i dunno how it currently is.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

Yea this is probably better if he raised in mp or the co.. since the wider his range, the more air (or low pps or whatever) I fold. These guys I think cbet a very very high % b/c the first hand they think that I have is probably a low pp.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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I think its close to 100% as long as we dont get semi-bluff-reraised very often ....

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Definitely. We also don't usually get re-raised, even by huge hands, on this board.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

i do this like always at high stakes nl

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

I kind of wished this wasn't posted, I think pretty much no one does this at 400 and not even too often at 600.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

Hmmm. I usually fold preflop, but if I call I play flop like this 90%+.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

lol i pull this [censored] all the time. hard for them to call with even TPGK

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

The tag has to be a little slow if you intend on doing this everytime.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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lol i pull this [censored] all the time. hard for them to call with even TPGK

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Well not if you do it all the time...

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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The tag has to be a little slow if you intend on doing this everytime.

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lol i pull this [censored] all the time. hard for them to call with even TPGK

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Well not if you do it all the time...

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Huge % of the time they dont have toppair good kicker or better. Also, its like, if you do this every time, they might be a bit slow, and they might suspect somethin is up, but to that you reply, "So what chuu gonna do about it?!?"

Dont forget that often when they decide to call your semi bluff, (which isnt very often), you will still outdraw them. Othertimes when they think you are FOS, you will actaully have something like QK or a set, so they will be spewin dem chips.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

I pull this [censored] at 200NL....regularly....lol...

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

calling a certain amount of the time is good too.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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I kind of wished this wasn't posted, I think pretty much no one does this at 400 and not even too often at 600.

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there is a reason why i don't do this that often because with my image i get 3-bet or looked up so often. (that and they always have top set when i try to make a movie) but yeah against some players this is a very nice move.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

wow a raise

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

Are you ever doing this with air?

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

Another variation is to call the flop and raise any turn. It extracts more $$$ and looks stronger/scarier + possibly gives more scare cards to work with. In this particualr example, given a normal UTG raising range, I am not thrilled. I think competent players will 3-bet you fairly often.

Kirk

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

I tend to make a smaller raise here. Makes it more reasonable to balance with AK type hand if you need to (I usually don't though), plus a big part of why I'm raising this particular hand is so I get my cheapish draw at what is likely a really profitable gutter card, and the backdoor NF draw. Also I don't know if it makes sense, but I really prefer to do this with that backdoor nuts draw.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

sexy

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

say he calls, how often do you take a free card

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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say he calls, how often do you take a free card

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very often

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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say he calls, how often do you take a free card

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when your raise gets called on this board i would imagine you would have very little FE on the turn and more than likely you're gonna get blown off the pot by a c/r a.i. on the turn if you try again.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

what if the turn and river both blank and he checks to you on the river? give it up or stab?

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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say he calls, how often do you take a free card

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when your raise gets called on this board i would imagine you would have very little FE on the turn and more than likely you're gonna get blown off the pot by a c/r a.i. on the turn if you try again.

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ok so what's so special about this then if it's just a raise for a free card, this is standard in limit

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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say he calls, how often do you take a free card

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when your raise gets called on this board i would imagine you would have very little FE on the turn and more than likely you're gonna get blown off the pot by a c/r a.i. on the turn if you try again.

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ok so what's so special about this then if it's just a raise for a free card, this is standard in limit

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the main idea is that you would hope he folds right away on the flop.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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say he calls, how often do you take a free card

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when your raise gets called on this board i would imagine you would have very little FE on the turn and more than likely you're gonna get blown off the pot by a c/r a.i. on the turn if you try again.

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ok so what's so special about this then if it's just a raise for a free card, this is standard in limit

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the main idea is that you would hope he folds right away on the flop.

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yea, so it's a semibluff raise for a free card

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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Another variation is to call the flop and raise any turn. It extracts more $$$ and looks stronger/scarier + possibly gives more scare cards to work with.

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the downside to this though is that if they bet the turn they are more likely to have a lot stronger hand than typical. also if you try this against the wrong player it is going to be a fantastically expensive failed bluff.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

dan,

when did you learn how to play goot?

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

I love the re-steal raise to $335 if I'm UTG

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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say he calls, how often do you take a free card

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when your raise gets called on this board i would imagine you would have very little FE on the turn and more than likely you're gonna get blown off the pot by a c/r a.i. on the turn if you try again.

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ok so what's so special about this then if it's just a raise for a free card, this is standard in limit

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Cause they need a much stronger hand to call here than in limit. In limit people will peel AQ, here they are likely to fold AJ.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

Run the math assuming they call a decent sized bet if you hit the gutter and you'll see how +EV this is in most cases. Pretty std tho isn't it, raise your gutters and big draws, call your 8/9 outters. (I raise em all but w/e [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) More interesting would be success rates with raising mid or bottom pair against the opponent in question. Or raising every single flop after calling in position. Anyway, point is, many "good" TAGs cbet range into one opponent is 100%, while their call/3bet range when raised oop on flop is close to nil, even for a MIN-RAISE.

But I've said too much... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

So you're telling me you guys don't do this now? I will say that to do this 100% of the time you really gotta know they are TAG. Sooooo many people will call or push AK on you with no thought. This is just something to throw in there in place of floating. One benefit of this is that they may fold QQ or KQ here, but if we float they might find a way to get to showdown. I really shouldn't do this though, because I never have an actual hand and I haven't hit a gutshot in my life.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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say he calls, how often do you take a free card

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when your raise gets called on this board i would imagine you would have very little FE on the turn and more than likely you're gonna get blown off the pot by a c/r a.i. on the turn if you try again.

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ok so what's so special about this then if it's just a raise for a free card, this is standard in limit

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the main idea is that you would hope he folds right away on the flop.

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yea, so it's a semibluff raise for a free card

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metagame of this move is much more crucial in NL than in limit for sure.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

This isn't standard?

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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I love the re-steal raise to $335 if I'm UTG

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i totally agree.

OPs move will prob work like 100% of the time vs your average player. but someone with good hand reading skills will realize that this is air a significant portion of the time... dry board, no rr preflop, he HAS to have a monster or a bluff. the concept behind this is somewhat similar to that old Phil Ivey 5-bet rebluff he ran, albeit this hand is one move deep and UTG would have to be a very good player for it to go that route

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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Against a standard not-amazing-yet-still-a-winner tag player, what % of the time should we be doing THIS

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I'd like to see a study on how this works at 100NL.
My instinct with all them "I take TP to the felt"-players tell me this is a quick route to busto town.
But then again, my instinct is way off more often than not. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Edit: Whoops, no wonder, I'm in the wrong forum here. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Feel free to ignore.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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dan,

when did you learn how to play goot?

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I watched high stakes guys throw money around like it was 200nl... and when I became fully comfortable at the stakes I was playing at, then i could throw money around at 5/10 and 10/20 too !


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I love the re-steal raise to $335 if I'm UTG

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You betta be careful, I might put you on QT AND MOVE ALLIN. Like just yesterday, I raise up JTo and the flop is 893 vs this tag [censored]. He had the nerve to checkraise me, well, [censored] him, I was allin! He folded like a girl! go figure.


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OPs move will prob work like 100% of the time vs your average player. but someone with good hand reading skills will realize that this is air a significant portion of the time... dry board, no rr preflop, he HAS to have a monster or a bluff. the concept behind this is somewhat similar to that old Phil Ivey 5-bet rebluff he ran, albeit this hand is one move deep and UTG would have to be a very good player for it to go that route

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Of course you have to balance your metagame... Meaning you gotta felt QK on KJx boards more, and raise the flop with trips on relative dry baords (ie QQT). There have been times where preflop I call with QKs otb, the flop is qqx with a flushdraw, they bet, I raise big, and they move in with air which I happily call... Sorta makes them feel like a donk, which is part of the fun.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

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I kind of wished this wasn't posted, I think pretty much no one does this at 400 and not even too often at 600.

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I also wish this wasn't posted. Dan, obviously your line is better than floating and betting/bluff-raising the turn - it risks far less than bluff-raising turn. Still, do it too often and you'll get played back at. It is an easy money maker against uncreative nits, but can easily backfire around creative players who know what you're up to.

Re: You f\'in sstakes grinders prolly never do dis
 

dear everyone:
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I also wish this wasn't posted

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the hypocrisy is killing me.