Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tables)
 

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9819/69105587ol0.png
Ok, so maybe these players aren't anything special, but clicking to sit down at the first available table is really stupid.

Throughout the last 5 months I can say without a doubt one of the most important lessons I have learned about poker is to find tables that I have the largest edge at. I finally made the transition to middle stakes this month, but that was before hundreds of thousands of hands of small stakes on Pokerstars. One of the biggest flaws in the typical, solid 21/17 player's game at nl200 was that at any time of the day, I could log on and find four to six of them sitting at the same table, playing each other. Don't be one of those guys!!!111!1 In this post I'd like to first do a basic explanation of some things to be aware of when constantly table selecting and then I'd like to explain a little about how to deal with regulars when you are sitting with them.


So you just woke up, took a shower, rubbed one out, browsed some 2p2 stuff, and you are ready to start your session. What to do now???
For starters, look through the [censored] game lobby to find the games that are most profitable. If you get nothing else out of this post, please at the very least, never log on to a poker site and randomly sit at the first available tables unless you hate money. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Some key points about picking tables:

1. look for stacks between 70bbs and 95bbs. Regulars top off all the time, weak players who suck at life don't. you want your weak players who suck at life to have more than 50bbs ideally.

2. look though screen names at tables for known donators, if you have a buddy list, you can even go ahead and search for these players. free money is free money, even if it costs you 2 minutes of your session to find it.

3. Once you have found a table with a few reasonably stacked fish, make sure you leave when they leave. dont be lazy. there is no reason to play 4 handed with 3 other regulars, even if they are mediocre.

4. Playing a lot of tables is not a [censored] excuse to not table select. Ive 10 tabled multiple sessions, its still not that hard to leave when you have no bad players left at a table.

5 ????

6. profit


Ok, so now that you have a couple guidelines on basic table selection, i would just like to add a few words about dealing with regulars in general. Something that can be a secondary motivation for how you pick a table is how you have fared in the past against a particular player at the table. If there are any players that you know you are down a lot against and that are tough to play against, go ahead and play in their games, but think twice before you take the seat to his right for two hours. If there are any regulars that you are up massive amounts of money on, you can probably start treating them as borderline fish when considering table selection, because they likely know you are up on them a ton, and having a mental edge on them is huge advantage. For example, with myself, I avoid playing out of position against Pollyballer and Carrotsnake, whereas at times I would seek out tables that included FGators or Catcher333.


When you do sit with any decent regular, there is one key point that I want to make. It is fine to play back at them, go ahead and 3 bet them, 4 bet them. bluff shove with with overcards, do whatever you think is profitable, but whatever you do, the second you feel yourself getting emotionally involved and making angry plays, its time to leave the table. This is something I cannot emphasize enough. I still catch myself doing it from time to time, and i can tell you for a fact that there are tons of otherwise solid regulars that kill their winrate solely because they want to get back at or have the upper hand on other good players. Sure we all want to outplay other good players, but the next time you 4 bet someone, please dont let ur reason be, "because [censored] him".


Ok I think I have rambled enough. Some of this stuff is really basic, but I think it needs to be a point of emphasis for many people, so I hope people got something out of it.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

First - Great post

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

nice post. its basic, but i think we all need to be reminded of this from time to time.

a lot of the time ego gets in the way and we regs try to outplay each other when theres no need for it.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

while i table select a marginal amount, as my session goes on i like to stay at the same tables and get in the zone. then i get a feel for how the day is going for everyone, how they're playing vs. me, etc. then i can [censored] all over them.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

Good post. One thing I difffer on however is starting stacks. I always prefer tables where everyone has at least ~100 bb stacks, and at least 1 person has a stack ~200 bbs or larger. Then I try to get the Jesus seat on the big stack. This person is not normally deep because they're good. They're deep because they're lucky.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

very nice

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

good post thanks!

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

alot regs suck anyway. if you got pos on some retarded 25/20, you can tilt him and take money of him just as easily as some 45/10 fish. Just dont tilt yourself (problem i have sometimes). But if the 25/20 runs hot against me i usually leave, because its pretty hard indeed to get your edge over him then.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

I have to disagree with you Shizzle - I think it's much easier to make money off simply bad players than bad regulars who are super-predictable but don't make plainly idiotic mistakes like calling multiple streets with second pair or bluffing into you when previous action suggests you clearly like your hand and are very unlikely to fold. I think most of a good player's winrate (at least at lower stakes and if they practice good table selection - which is the point of this thread) comes from exploiting huge edges against bad players and not marginal edges against predictable regulars - at least until you get to high stakes where really bad players are a rarity I'd imagine.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

Some of these points I made become semi-irrelevant once you get past SSNL fwiw.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tables)
 

Hmm, pdoran used to play with me a lot. This confirms my suspicion that I'm one of the worst regs.

[ QUOTE ]
, please dont let ur reason be, "because [censored] him".


[/ QUOTE ]

This is my reasoning behind a lot of the stuff I do.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]
, please dont let ur reason be, "because [censored] him".

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao, did you steal this from one of many times i have posted it as a reason i did something [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

Nuggetz what is going on in your avatar? It's pretty disturbing.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

nice post dude. i think table selection is probably one of the biggest problems 2p2ers have with regards to winning money but i hope most people don't change anytime soon for my own sake [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some of these points I made become semi-irrelevant once you get past SSNL fwiw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that tableselection becomes way more important at higher stakes, because the amount of good players that will be difficult to outplay increase, while the badplayers who always go broke with toppair decrease.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]
the second you feel yourself getting emotionally involved and making angry plays, its time to leave the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is why you yelled at me so long ago. not b/c you were giving advice, but because you hated me [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

i always lol when i see a table full of regs. some people just hate money.

nice post

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

Nice post. I use my buddylist probably every 45 minutes during a session to check for better tables.

Hate to be a nit, but I think that sitting with weak-tite regs isn't so bad if you're thinking of moving up and really want to learn how to exploit these guys since I understand it becomes a bigger part of your winrate at MSNL. However, doing this 8-tabling or more is obv inexcusable since you can't really get postflop reads.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think that tableselection becomes way more important at higher stakes

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but it's still a good habit to get into at lower stakes...recognizing good and bad tables is a skill that should be developed as early as possible. I just switched from minbet to NL and at least 1ptbb of my winrate has to be the result of rigorous table selection. 5 or 6 2x/1x/2+ regs playing against each other just baffles me.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

"work smarter, not harder"

good post pdoran

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tables)
 

Good post. I really wish I made more of an effort to table select sometimes. When tables start to break and it becomes me and like 2 solid regs or heads up, I just hate to stand up. I don't really get angry and start making bad plays against people, but I do hate to feel like I'm admitting I'm not confident I can beat them or whatever. It's stupid, but it just feels like I'm admitting defeat or something.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

great advice and let me add the guide to identifying bad players by screen name:

THE RULES:
1) first name/nickname
2) capital letters
3) poker terminology

ex trifecta mega-donk:

BIGJONSTR8FLUSH

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tables)
 

Nice Post.

Table selection is a big part of my $$$. I always find tables w/ high VPIP and big pots. Sometimes it can be deceiving though, cuz you sit down after the fish is gone and all the regs have joined in with the same agenda as you and the stats don't reflect the change yet. Then I'll happily find another table. If there is a megafish that I have position on, I'll sit with him and a bunch of regs, but if he leaves I'm out before teh next hand is dealt.

Also, I've done the method of opening a fresh table. Regs usually look for full tables, so usually you're joined by med stack donks that try to go all in on every hand...which works every time but the last time;)

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

I think this depends on your goals in poker. Most of the regulars at stakes like $200, for example, are just really not good at all and have serious flaws in their game. Obviously not even remotely close to the flaws of fish / donks / etc. But refusing to learn to exploit players who aren't completely terrible seems like a good way to stunt your growth as a player and potential for improvement / moving through the stakes. Table selection at small stakes seems likely, for most, to maximize short term results but harm your potential long term results.

Not to mention playing against regulars is just a whole lot more fun than taking some fish's money, or stealing a nit's money blind by blind.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

yeah also don't be afraid to start your own games. regs will recognize you and tend not to join until at least one full stacked random has sat

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

Just looking at stacks says a TON. The only time you have to analyse a screen name is when they have 100bb+.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good post. I really wish I made more of an effort to table select sometimes. When tables start to break and it becomes me and like 2 solid regs or heads up, I just hate to stand up. I don't really get angry and start making bad plays against people, but I do hate to feel like I'm admitting I'm not confident I can beat them or whatever. It's stupid, but it just feels like I'm admitting defeat or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a massive leak you have.

the best way to think about it is the following:

i have earned in total $9,170.16 this month at NL200 in 20,678 hands (w/o rake). that is a winrate of 11.1ptbb/100.

if you remove the rake my winrate is only 8.1ptbb/100, so i am paying 3ptbb/100.

so to make a profit sitting at a table of regs you have to have an edge of more than 3ptbb/100. so even if you are the best player at the table, you are probably losing money in the long run.

every table you must look and see the spots where you are making alot of money from. you may have an edge against some 19/13/2 player but is it really enough to overcome the 3ptbb/100 in rake you are paying.

i am usually the 1st person to leave the table, and i am very confident of my ability. i laugh to myself at their stupidity and join another table where i have a massive edge instead of breaking even against a bunch of regs + massive rake


as you move up in stakes, the rake becomes lower in ptbb/100 so at 300/600 the rake is virtually insignificant and playing the same table of regs you figure to have an edge on is a very reasonable thing to do as you probably only have to have an edge over them of 1ptbb/100 to make a profit


an often overlooked fact about table selection....

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good post. I really wish I made more of an effort to table select sometimes. When tables start to break and it becomes me and like 2 solid regs or heads up, I just hate to stand up. I don't really get angry and start making bad plays against people, but I do hate to feel like I'm admitting I'm not confident I can beat them or whatever. It's stupid, but it just feels like I'm admitting defeat or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a massive leak you have.

the best way to think about it is the following:

i have earned in total $9,170.16 this month at NL200 in 20,678 hands (w/o rake). that is a winrate of 11.1ptbb/100.

if you remove the rake my winrate is only 8.1ptbb/100, so i am paying 3ptbb/100.

so to make a profit sitting at a table of regs you have to have an edge of more than 3ptbb/100. so even if you are the best player at the table, you are probably losing money in the long run.

every table you must look and see the spots where you are making alot of money from. you may have an edge against some 19/13/2 player but is it really enough to overcome the 3ptbb/100 in rake you are paying.

i am usually the 1st person to leave the table, and i am very confident of my ability. i laugh to myself at their stupidity and join another table where i have a massive edge instead of breaking even against a bunch of regs + massive rake


as you move up in stakes, the rake becomes lower in ptbb/100 so at 300/600 the rake is virtually insignificant and playing the same table of regs you figure to have an edge on is a very reasonable thing to do as you probably only have to have an edge over them of 1ptbb/100 to make a profit


an often overlooked fact about table selection....

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are remotely decent at very short-handed play, your edge against a 19/13/2 'reg' in a 3-handed game should be massive. Certainly more than 3BB/100. Those guys are extremely unlikely to have even remotely close to the proper skill set for 3 handed play.

Again, just another way of looking at things.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this depends on your goals in poker. Most of the regulars at stakes like $200, for example, are just really not good at all and have serious flaws in their game. Obviously not even remotely close to the flaws of fish / donks / etc. But refusing to learn to exploit players who aren't completely terrible seems like a good way to stunt your growth as a player and potential for improvement / moving through the stakes. Table selection at small stakes seems likely, for most, to maximize short term results but harm your potential long term results.


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously this is a very valid point. I think this ties into bankroll aswell. For instance, I've recently moved to SSNL from micros. Right now, I'm continuing to build my roll and adjust to the stakes, so stacking fish is helping that tremendously. I'm planning on staying clear of GOOD regs until I have more buyins to deal with the variance and my learning curve of how to deal with them.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

I don't agree that trying to find soft games would hurt your development at all. Exploiting weak players for maximum value is probably the most important skill you can have. A lot of regulars I see who play pretty well against other regulars refuse to adjust their game to weak players - they play their usual Tag game or whatever and while it definitely gives them an edge it's often far from optimal. They refuse to limp because limping is 'bad' - they refuse to coldcall because coldcalling is 'bad' - they refuse to play junk because playing junk is 'bad', and so on.

You can still learn to exploit regulars because you hardly ever get a table full of very bad players. In fact playing soft games with just one or two regulars is probably more helpful to developing skills because you'll have to adjust to the dynamic - looking out for regulars trying to isolate and 3-betting them etc.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree that trying to find soft games would hurt your development at all. Exploiting weak players for maximum value is probably the most important skill you can have. A lot of regulars I see who play pretty well against other regulars refuse to adjust their game to weak players - they play their usual Tag game or whatever and while it definitely gives them an edge it's often far from optimal. They refuse to limp because limping is 'bad' - they refuse to coldcall because coldcalling is 'bad' - they refuse to play junk because playing junk is 'bad', and so on.

You can still learn to exploit regulars because you hardly ever get a table full of very bad players. In fact playing soft games with just one or two regulars is probably more helpful to developing skills because you'll have to adjust to the dynamic - looking out for regulars trying to isolate and 3-betting them etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point

i learn how to play against the regs when i am playing at a table with 1 massive fish and 4 regs. you get the profit from the fish and experience from the regs

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

on PS fish are easy to find

it's the [censored] brain dead mouth breathers with the [censored] [censored] BABY AVATARS... AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH they always suck so [censored] bad, and their avatars always tilt the [censored] out of me

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5838/000002hw7.jpg

but seriously, this is very important, i do it a lot, and i still get to practice playing vs regs quite a bit, since i'll often have position on a fish and some regs at the table too

i select tables where i have position on fish, and don't worry too much about where the regs sit, except for not having over aggros have position on me

i am constantly getting up from tables, finding new tables, and adding myself to waiting lists the entire time i play

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

You should maybe added a few more guidlines like look for tables of 40%+ VPIP and only sit at tables with 2 other regs, maybe 3 if one is bad/exploitable and always try and sit to the regs left.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

its important, but its also fun as hell to wreck people!

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tables)
 

Great post.

Looking at the screen shot, one thing that I think you might not be taking full advantage of is the sorting ability in the PS lobby.

Myself, I sort by two things, (the ps lobby offers multi-level sorting) the % of players seeing the flop and the average pot size. I go to the top of whatever stakes and just wait. Table Alphara II in your screen shot I would think is a gold mine for example.

When the fish are all gone, I'll only leave if I don't think I have a significant edge over the reg but generally I'll stick it out for at least 5-10 hands cause fish love to do everything the easy way and as a result will just grab the first empty table on the list which is often yours in the default sort if you have only 2-3 people there.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

I have found that people with vegetables in their name are usually donks.

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be one of those guys!!!111!1

[/ QUOTE ]

No, please keep being one of those guys and leave the fish to me k thx. Awful post. What were you thinking telling people to game select. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

ya lol. I can't help but laugh when I see a bunch of 16/12 8tabling and just trading blinds

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

[ QUOTE ]
always try and sit to the regs left.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've heard this a lot, but i think it's more important to sit to the fish's left

iow, if i have a fish on my left and a reg on my right, i leave

if i have a fish on my right and a reg on my left, i stay

Re: Pooh-Bah Post: Table Selection and Regulars (Why Im not at ur tabl
 

I've found people that can't believe they aren't butter aren't very good either