how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

hi, iv been playing 25NL for a while now, and i keep coming across a player type. he limps pre-flop a lot of the time even with hands like KK, and calls a ton of raises whether in possition or out and he never 3bets.

but post-flop he will c/c almost all cbets or donk and then call RR. then on turn and river he will bet if checked to, re-raise if flush hits or flop was paired sometimes ect.. and i will normally have no hand, and when i do, it wont allways be strong enought to call down with, say midpair or something.
and also, when i do have a good enough hand to play a big pot with him like TP/3k or overpair, he folds :-\ or in the few cases when they do call me down/make a move, they suck out on later streets.

iv asked about this, on other forums and iv asked my coach, but i get answers like, dont-cbet, and if i dont c-bet then they will just bet it and take it down... so anyone have any suggestions plz?

thnx

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

Against this type of player I tend to:
- overlimp (limp behind) more than I otherwise would
- raise less frequently
- raise to a smaller amount (say 3bb as apposed to 4bb)
- c-bet less - mix up my flop lines more. If I'm going to c-bet less I'm also going to check more flops when I do make a hand.

Lucky

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

thank you

what is the name for these player types?

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

[ QUOTE ]
thank you

what is the name for these player types?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a name for them, though I see this type of player often (On one site that I play a few mediocre regs fit this profile). Honestly, it is somewhat hard, but not impossible, to win playing they way they are playing.

Lucky

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

Position will help a lot, because you can check behind on a lot of flops (after you raise PF), and this way only the turn and river are available for betting, so you won't be playing huge pots with marginal hands.

Out of position, raise tighter, and be prepared to play for stacks with hands like AQ on a A-8-6-3 board, or 10-10 on a rag board, etc (does he get to showdown a lot?). Try for -bet flop and check/raise turn- lines with very strong hands.

Be prepared to concede a lot of smaller pots in exchange for huge edges in medium and large pots. These types of opponents are gold mines once you get past the frustration of missing and giving up most small pots.

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

[ QUOTE ]
thank you

what is the name for these player types?

[/ QUOTE ]
These are called loose-passive/aggressive players(loose-passive preflop/aggressive post flop). If you're using GameTime+ or PAHUD and you see an icon of a dice (die) that's what it represents. If you see a Tazmanian Devil icon, it represents loose-aggressive/aggressive (loose-aggressive preflop/aggressive post flop).

Loose-aggressive/passive players typically have stats like 35/15/1 (limping a lot and raising a decent amount preflop and calling a lot post flop...rarely raising post flop...if they do they have a very strong hand).

Loose-aggressive/aggressive players will tend to be 40/25/5 (raising a lot preflop, betting/raising and rarely folding post flop). Their stats are atrocious and can usually be called down light while they bluff a lot. It's best to have postition against these LAGtards because they will put you to the test everytime you're in the pot against them.

AC

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

if a player is letting you see cheap flops and betting all the subsequent streets, just limp in a lot of flops and c/f unless you flop something good; if you flop something let him do the betting for you.

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

thnx guys
i think my problem this time was not having possition on him then, i was sat to his right, so i only had possition when on button :-\

so you would recomend me limping with scs and smallish pps then? what hands would i be raising then? only AJ-AK and nice suited broadway like JTs or JKs and 99up?

not sure i like limping, but i will try it when i come across another one of these players.
i appreciate the advice given, thnx

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

[ QUOTE ]
thnx guys
i think my problem this time was not having possition on him then, i was sat to his right, so i only had possition when on button :-\

so you would recomend me limping with scs and smallish pps then? what hands would i be raising then? only AJ-AK and nice suited broadway like JTs or JKs and 99up?

not sure i like limping, but i will try it when i come across another one of these players.
i appreciate the advice given, thnx

[/ QUOTE ]
Open limping (if you're playing 6-max is really bad). With suited connectors you can call a limp and the closer you are to the button (like the cutoff or the button) you will want to raise these hands. Read Tien's post on 6-max fundamentals found HERE for more information on how to play pocket pairs, suited connectors, broadways, and big aces from all positions. I hope this helps.

AC

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

+1

Against this type of player I tend to:
- overlimp (limp behind) more than I otherwise would
- raise less frequently
- raise to a smaller amount (say 3bb as apposed to 4bb)
- c-bet less - mix up my flop lines more. If I'm going to c-bet less I'm also going to check more flops when I do make a hand.

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

I disagree. This is my favorite game (very LP pre- and very TA postflop)

I tend to play this way (live) and now moreso online, splashing my chips around in many pots and looking like an idiot calling station. My stats can look something like 66/5.

If I miss the flop, I dump the hand. When I hit, the wonderful hud-stats lead others to believe I'm much worse than I actually am- and I usually get paid with my big hands while I play them as aggressively/deceptively/whatever as possible. What people don't seem to get is that my ranges for raising or jamming are TAG once that flop hits, and I benefit by people thinking they are ahead of my range (thank you again, HUD) and calling me down.

I play this type of game a few times a week, with the rest of the week playing solid TAG. It really depends on the table.. but it is definitely profitable-- but has much more variance than the standard TAG game.

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. This is my favorite game (very LP pre- and very TA postflop)

I tend to play this way (live) and now moreso online, splashing my chips around in many pots and looking like an idiot calling station. My stats can look something like 66/5.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully they don't look like 66/5 too often. You won't beat the game playing like that. I'm assuming they might look like that over the first 30 hands if you get a good run of cards, then even out the longer the session runs.

AC

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

[ QUOTE ]
Be prepared to concede a lot of smaller pots in exchange for huge edges in medium and large pots. These types of opponents are gold mines once you get past the frustration of missing and giving up most small pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

No, my stats don't look like that very often, but there are times when this style of play is VERY effective. I like it most when I am at a table of Tight players, or players who don't play the flop/turn very well. When I'm up against a TAG player, if I'm playing back on the flop, it's only because my hand holding is ahead of a typical TAG range.

If everyone played against this style correctly, it would be a sure loser. However people don't. They think a super LAG preflop player is the same post-flop. They don't sniff out the sneaky hand that has just made it big. The superloose style of play and table image brings the possibility of stacking opponents that makes the 1BB bleed hands worthwhile.

I hesiatated to write this, but the best way to counter this style (or frustrate me when I'm playing this style) is to play an aggressive pre-flop game. I do not play top top 20-40% hands against a r or rr. The key is to limp the suited connectors, pockets, ace suiteds, two faces,etc., and either outplay or outflop the opponent - if missed, it's a one BB loss, if hit- well- I count on you to discredit my game and believe I'm beat.


Against this style: R or RR a slightly wider range preflop. The maniac limping 40-50% of holdings means many dominated hands are in play. Make it impossible to get in and out cheap for 1BB.

On the flop: Don't discount the possibility of the open ended draw or made two pair against your AQ on the Q 7 5 flop. Play as cautiously against a raise as you would against a TAG player, but keeping in mind the range of hands you must consider being against is FAR wider than usual.

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

The 66/5 guy is a lot less common than the 25/5 guy. I welcome either variation of this type of player.

Lucky

Re: how do i beat passive pre-flop super aggressive postflop players
 

Great post - also because it introduces what I consider the optimal style - adaptive poker.

There is absolutely no player that any of us is going to play who does not play in a manner that is exploitable. One of the single most important things you can learn as a poker player (after basic fundamentals of course) is how to play several variations on your basic game and who to use each of them against. Personally I play a slightly unorthodox style, but I have tested it and find it very effective against the TAGs of the world. Too many of them play predictably, and that's just asking for a thinking player (me) to find something to mess them up somehow.

One of the things in poker that makes me either wince or laugh out loud is when someone says 'always' in conjunction with a certain play. There is basically no play outside of a couple extreme cases that are absolutes in this game. There are definately optimal plays, and 2+2 is great for learning those...but there really aren't absolutes in the game.

Ok enough babbling I'm ready to leave work already [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]