Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

'ArnieF' asks me for $1,020 Party for $1,120 Stars, he sends first. I say sure, what's the harm if he's going to send first.

He sends $100, I send $100 back. He sends the rest, I send the rest. Fine. The next day (today), I get this:


Hello Aaron,

It has come to our attention that on 10/9/07 you received a total of $1120
from 'voippoker200' with whom we have an outstanding matter with. We would
appreciate if you could explain your relation to 'voippoker200' and the
reason for the transfer you received from him.

Pending your reply, your account has been deactivated.

Kind regards,

Adriana
PokerStars Security


After more back-and-forth, Stars makes it clear that this guy deposited via some kind of credit card fraud, and now they're just going to keep the balance he sent me.

I haven't heard of this happening before. Am I stupid to trust the discretion of Poker Stars approval on player transfers? If they're accusing this guy of fraud, why the hell is he allowed to make player transfers?

This means anybody can make an illegal deposit, and then transfer the money out, even SENDING FIRST, and then the host site will chase down whoever was doing the transfer with this guy.

They approved his sending money to me, so how the [censored] is this my fault?

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

Wow, even being sent first on Stars isn't safe.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

I don't like to use fault but you did (although with no knowledge) help someone commit fraud. It sucks but in essence Stars has no way of knowing if you were in on it with the guy or not.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

As far as im aware this is the case on just about every site and its the one reason i dont do all this transfer stuff.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like to use fault but you did (although with no knowledge) help someone commit fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, but if this guy is under investigation, why is he permitted to transfer out his illicit balance in the first place? If they would lock down his account transfers along with standard cash-out options (assuming they did so), this BS wouldn't even be possible, and because of this, I feel Stars is a lot more responsible for this incident than I am.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

It's been like this forever on every site

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, but if this guy is under investigation, why is he permitted to transfer out his illicit balance in the first place? If they would lock down his account transfers along with standard cash-out options (assuming they did so), this BS wouldn't even be possible, and because of this, I feel Stars is a lot more responsible for this incident than I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when the transfer was made they had no idea about the fraud yet. It takes time for the charge-backs to show up or for the e-check to bounce. The scam artist basically has 3 to 25-30 days depending on what service they are defrauding to find someone to make a trade with.

Before the scamer would have a second account and just withdrawal the money but sites got better at detecting that so now they need to find someone to trade with.

Was the trade initiated on here? I'd explain the situation to Stars. Get documentation from Party. Show them the chat on an independent site where you met this lowlife etc.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

I dont understand why people risk this. with the new payment processors there is no need.... epass works great between stars ap and FT.

If someone has money on party they have access to way better methods.

sorry bud

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, but if this guy is under investigation, why is he permitted to transfer out his illicit balance in the first place? If they would lock down his account transfers along with standard cash-out options (assuming they did so), this BS wouldn't even be possible, and because of this, I feel Stars is a lot more responsible for this incident than I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when the transfer was made they had no idea about the fraud yet. It takes time for the charge-backs to show up or for the e-check to bounce. The scam artist basically has 3 to 25-30 days depending on what service they are defrauding to find someone to make a trade with.

Before the scamer would have a second account and just withdrawal the money but sites got better at detecting that so now they need to find someone to trade with.

Was the trade initiated on here? I'd explain the situation to Stars. Get documentation from Party. Show them the chat on an independent site where you met this lowlife etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also... They wouldn't let him "cashout," just play the money. You let him "cashout" sorta.

HEY POKERSTARS, why won't you let him cashout, but you WILL let him transfer???? I don't think you should let a player tranfer uncertified funds. It should be the same policy as a cashout. It would stop some of this kind of stuff immediately.

JMHO

-------------Kitty

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, but if this guy is under investigation, why is he permitted to transfer out his illicit balance in the first place? If they would lock down his account transfers along with standard cash-out options (assuming they did so), this BS wouldn't even be possible, and because of this, I feel Stars is a lot more responsible for this incident than I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when the transfer was made they had no idea about the fraud yet. It takes time for the charge-backs to show up or for the e-check to bounce. The scam artist basically has 3 to 25-30 days depending on what service they are defrauding to find someone to make a trade with.

Before the scamer would have a second account and just withdrawal the money but sites got better at detecting that so now they need to find someone to trade with.

Was the trade initiated on here? I'd explain the situation to Stars. Get documentation from Party. Show them the chat on an independent site where you met this lowlife etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also... They wouldn't let him "cashout," just play the money. You let him "cashout" sorta.

HEY POKERSTARS, why won't you let him cashout, but you WILL let him transfer???? I don't think you should let a player tranfer uncertified funds. It should be the same policy as a cashout. It would stop some of this kind of stuff immediately.

JMHO

-------------Kitty

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! Make the [censored] policy just like deposit policy. You cannot cash out a deposit for 48 hours, make transfers disabled for 10 days after deposit via a speculative method.

It will solve MOST transfer fraud.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

It's like this on every site.
The only other option here is for Stars to hold up every transfer for a long time to make sure nothing bad appears of the illegal-credit variety on the money. And even if they held up every single transfer for 72 hours or longer that STILL wouldn't be enough time for some of the transactions to have been reported as illegal.

Think about somebody who had their number stolen and didn't realize it until the bill came a month later or something. They can't report the fraudulent activity the very next day because they never knew about it in the first place...and most people aren't frantically checking their balance every single day. They just wait for the bill.


It's unfortunate that people don't understand that "hey, I'll transfer first" does not guarantee you can't get scammed.
In fact, the person INSISTING that he can do the transfer first might even be more likely to be trying to dump off illegally obtained funds. Not positive about that though.

But think about it. They have this illegal money that they think might get flagged any minute now. They want to get rid of it and hope that you transfer back to them.
They really can't lose here. They can only win.

It would be nice if Stars, FT and other sites could all work together to stop this stuff a bit better. But it's difficult for Party or FT or whoever to know that you really did get scammed by the same guy on Stars.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

If he can play party.. why can't he use neteller or anything the rest of the european community can use?

I've only ever transferred with people I know.. guess that's why I've never had a problem.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

Even banning his 2+2 account is no solace. It's only 10 posts.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's like this on every site.
The only other option here is for Stars to hold up every transfer for a long time to make sure nothing bad appears of the illegal-credit variety on the money. And even if they held up every single transfer for 72 hours or longer that STILL wouldn't be enough time for some of the transactions to have been reported as illegal.

Think about somebody who had their number stolen and didn't realize it until the bill came a month later or something. They can't report the fraudulent activity the very next day because they never knew about it in the first place...and most people aren't frantically checking their balance every single day. They just wait for the bill.


It's unfortunate that people don't understand that "hey, I'll transfer first" does not guarantee you can't get scammed.
In fact, the person INSISTING that he can do the transfer first might even be more likely to be trying to dump off illegally obtained funds. Not positive about that though.

But think about it. They have this illegal money that they think might get flagged any minute now. They want to get rid of it and hope that you transfer back to them.
They really can't lose here. They can only win.

It would be nice if Stars, FT and other sites could all work together to stop this stuff a bit better. But it's difficult for Party or FT or whoever to know that you really did get scammed by the same guy on Stars.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC FT(or UB)went to a 60 or 90 day hold on transferring funds depending on deposit method...

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]


Exactly! Make the [censored] policy just like deposit policy. You cannot cash out a deposit for 48 hours, make transfers disabled for 10 days after deposit via a speculative method.

It will solve MOST transfer fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[ QUOTE ]

I've only ever transferred with people I know.. guess that's why I've never had a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also QFT

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like to use fault but you did (although with no knowledge) help someone commit fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, but if this guy is under investigation, why is he permitted to transfer out his illicit balance in the first place? If they would lock down his account transfers along with standard cash-out options (assuming they did so), this BS wouldn't even be possible, and because of this, I feel Stars is a lot more responsible for this incident than I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly is Stars responsible? They didn't tell you that the guy's funds were legitimate. You took that risk, and you got burned. For 1k, I'd be damn sure to email support and make sure the guy I'm trading with isn't under investigation or anything, and if they won't answer, I'd let some other sucker take the risk. Why the hell do you think he's offering you an extra $100 for something ePass could've done for a lot less anyway?

Besides, he had ten posts and was probably a gimmick account. Why take a risk like that for someone who isn't an established member of the community?

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

There is a risk in any transfer, this is not the first time its happened. However, you are still trading with a complete stranger, and one with 10 posts(?).. I just hope it wasn't a huge % of your bankroll. I remember asking for hundreds in paypal and would only do $10-$20 with people the first time, then wait a few weeks. I met a few people who I still trade with today.

Bottom line, don't transfer any cash you can't live without. I'm would not transfer 25% of my bankroll to the pope first.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why take a risk like that for someone who isn't an established member of the community?

[/ QUOTE ]

Frankly, I didn't see any risk in accepting a cash transfer before sending one out. I didn't see any risk in accepting a cash transfer approved by Poker Stars security. I didn't suspect Poker Stars would actually process a cash transfer from someone they're investigating, and then come back shortly after and impound that money in someone else's account.

I understand the risk and I read all the good posts made in this thread but this is what it comes down to:

When you receive a cash transfer on a poker site that was approved by said poker site's security team, wouldn't you 100% expect to be able to keep this money?

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

Why is everyone dumping on OP. Raze did nothing wrong. He's an honest transferer. Some guy sent him 1K first. He sent back 1K. He did not scam anyone, even though he could have easily. I commend him on his honesty.

This is the FIRST POST EVER I have read about someone getting ripped off by having someone send first on Stars. I don't fault him for getting ripped off.

Someone please post a link to another post of someone getting ripped off by being sent first on Stars if they can find it.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

I wasn't ripped off but I have had my account locked because of something similar. I only transfer with people I play with live. If they ran out of real money I'd lend them money and they would transfer it to my Stars account from theirs.

Eventually one of them did end up doing a bunch of fraud and even though none of that money was ever transfered to me. All of us had our accounts locked and investigated.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone dumping on OP. Raze did nothing wrong. He's an honest transferer. Some guy sent him 1K first. He sent back 1K. He did not scam anyone, even though he could have easily. I commend him on his honesty.

This is the FIRST POST EVER I have read about someone getting ripped off by having someone send first on Stars. I don't fault him for getting ripped off.

Someone please post a link to another post of someone getting ripped off by being sent first on Stars if they can find it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree for the most part. Yes, I understand Stars' position, and it doesn't shock me that this could happen...but for the most part, if I received a transfer first, I would expect I was good to go. I have always wondered about chargebacks though, which is one of the biggest reasons I've avoided helping out with transfers. This could put a bit more of a chill on the transfer thread, unfortunately for those who truly need it.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

These Poker Sites are not online BANKS. So when you continue to do transfers to people on one site for money on another what more can you expect? Don't blame the sites, blame the damn U.S. Government for trying to block us from gambling with our money.

-Brendan

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone dumping on OP. Raze did nothing wrong. He's an honest transferer. Some guy sent him 1K first. He sent back 1K. He did not scam anyone, even though he could have easily. I commend him on his honesty.

This is the FIRST POST EVER I have read about someone getting ripped off by having someone send first on Stars. I don't fault him for getting ripped off.

Someone please post a link to another post of someone getting ripped off by being sent first on Stars if they can find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

no op Sent 1.0k and received 1.1K. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH. Why would this guy do this when Neteller / Epassport are available. OP should of thought why does this guy want to pay 10% juice.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, but if this guy is under investigation, why is he permitted to transfer out his illicit balance in the first place? If they would lock down his account transfers along with standard cash-out options (assuming they did so), this BS wouldn't even be possible, and because of this, I feel Stars is a lot more responsible for this incident than I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when the transfer was made they had no idea about the fraud yet. It takes time for the charge-backs to show up or for the e-check to bounce. The scam artist basically has 3 to 25-30 days depending on what service they are defrauding to find someone to make a trade with.

Before the scamer would have a second account and just withdrawal the money but sites got better at detecting that so now they need to find someone to trade with.

Was the trade initiated on here? I'd explain the situation to Stars. Get documentation from Party. Show them the chat on an independent site where you met this lowlife etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also... They wouldn't let him "cashout," just play the money. You let him "cashout" sorta.

HEY POKERSTARS, why won't you let him cashout, but you WILL let him transfer???? I don't think you should let a player tranfer uncertified funds. It should be the same policy as a cashout. It would stop some of this kind of stuff immediately.

JMHO

-------------Kitty

[/ QUOTE ]

they wont let you transfer unless you win money over the amount deposited then you have access to transfer until the e check clears.. so this was winnings over the amount deposited so therefore these funds should not be confiscated

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]


no op Sent 1.0k and received 1.1K. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH. Why would this guy do this when Neteller / Epassport are available. OP should of thought why does this guy want to pay 10% juice.

[/ QUOTE ]

People have paid crazy vig amounts for transfers before if you have ever followed the person to person thread. Although Party transfer requests are suspicious because non-Americans don't really need to request transfers.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

If you can't trust anonymous strangers on the internet with made up names with hundreds of dollars, who can you trust?

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't trust anonymous strangers on the internet with made up names with hundreds of dollars, who can you trust?

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars?

gg

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

You got defrauded because you trusted a complete stranger who offered you a chance to make an easy $100.

The money you received is apparently stolen. It still belongs to its original owner and you have no legal or moral claim to it. It's unfortunate you got involved but that's the risk you took.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

At Full Tilt you have to have an established time period of successful deposits with credit cards/ neteller type deposits before being allowed to transfer those funds. (at least according to their cashier area)

Does Stars have a similar policy? If not- how is it that Stars is actually behind Tilt on something like this when on support they are light years ahead?

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

I half grunched, but didn't see anyone tell this guy to contact FTP and try to get them in touch with Stars about this. I don't think they'd let the account you transfered to cash out without some playthrough.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, even being sent first on Stars isn't safe.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol thats how I got my account closed.. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
I half grunched, but didn't see anyone tell this guy to contact FTP and try to get them in touch with Stars about this. I don't think they'd let the account you transfered to cash out without some playthrough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did all the site talk way before starting this thread. Party naturally said there's nothing they can do about it, and that's to be expected. There is some kind of hand criteria before he can cash out, but they told me they have no intentions of freezing this guy's account for the purpose of helping Poker Stars with this case of fraud.

I still feel very strongly that PS should never have allowed this situation to happen, to allow this guy to make transfers and create such a problem.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

I'd be disappointed by Stars if they didn't allow you to keep the money. You received it in good faith, just as if you won it at the tables.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be disappointed by Stars if they didn't allow you to keep the money. You received it in good faith, just as if you won it at the tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. What exactly is the difference between a transfer and him sitting at a table and losing all his fraudulent money in a legitimate game. Are Stars going to withdraw the funds from all the people who won from him?

The sites need to take some responsibility here. Otherwise, following logically, why can't the OP inform FTP that this is a fraudulent line and claim the money back from them in the same way has Stars has done to him?

The fraud was perpetrated by a player that Stars let sign up. That player then fraudulently deposited and the transaction was with Stars. If Stars then let him transfer to another player then Stars should suffer any loss IMHO. The fact all sites do it does not make it morally correct.

If however Stars can prove or suspect collusion in these payments then by all means they should suspend the OP's account pending an investigation.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

Wouldn't that be an even easier recipe for the stolen funds to be kept?
You don't even need to do the transfer on FT or Party now. Just transfer it to a friend, then claim that you have already sent him your money via a different site and you nothing about this person or any stolen funds, blah blah blah.
Stars says, "Oh...okay. Well, since it's pretty hard for us to figure out if you actually know the guy or not I guess we'll just let you keep the money because you seem so honest."

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

The solution is no transfers or at least no transfers for 45 days after a deposit.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

This is really no diff then when someone hacks anothers account and trades of the funds. PS does the same thing. Pretty much a lose lose for you

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

i got conned before when i used to make trades for people like this on neverbeg website a lot. stars locked my acct while they investigated, but i ended up getting my money back, cuase the guy who got scammed realized i wasnt the one at fault.

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

[ QUOTE ]
The solution is no transfers or at least no transfers for 45 days after a deposit.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real solution is not to send thousands of dollars to people you dont even know. Would you cash a cheque for a stranger walking down the street? LDON

Re: Don\'t EVER transfer money on PokerStars, don\'t even send first
 

Also, don't ever have sex.

Not a concern for a lot of you, granted...