Legality and Withdrawl
 

What are the ramifications of withdrawing money from the online sites? For example, a 20k wire transfer to your bank account.

1) Is that Illegal in any way?
2) Is it red flagged by the IRS?

Obviously you have to pay taxes, this is not a tax question. More a legal question.

Thanks

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

There is nothing illegal about withdrawing money from a poker site.

A transaction over 10K is generally subject to reporting requirements, with some exceptions. The poker sites dont do any reporting, of course, but you or your bank may be required to (you have to wait for the financial experts to respond or look it up yourself). Not doing the reporting if you are required to is a serious crime. So is structuring transactions to avoid the requirement.

Those reports of over 10K transactions do get to the IRS.

Skallagrim

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

skall summed it up 7x6, my jewish investment banking friend from manhattan....nothing illegal about it at all....

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

lol sup bro, who are you? As it is clear you either know me or know of me, but have some outdated information.

Skall, what do you mean by structuring transactions? Obv not reporting income as to avoid taxes is a crime, and is simply stupid in my mind when you have wire transfers and checks to show income. Except for losses to offset wins, the irs will unfortunately get its share of the pie from me. I guess by structuring you meant some way to conceal money.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

No, its not about concealing the money (well it is sort of), its about hiding the need to report the transaction. Say you sell your car for 12K cash and want to deposit that into your bank. Your bank will have to report that transaction to the Feds cause its over 10K. If you instead make two 6K deposits, you are "structuring" to avoid the reporting requirement and that is a crime in and of itself.

I know the reporting requirement always applies to a cash transaction - I cant recall off the top of my head what other kinds of transactions it does or does not apply to.

Skallagrim

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

That seems odd. If you are reporting all transactions at the end of the the year anyway, what does it matter if you do 2 6k's or 1 12k? From my perspective, if i cashout say 6k a week from online poker, rather than 12k every 2 weeks, is that a crime? Doesnt make sense to me, since at the end of the day, i pay tax on every cent i make.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

Nowhere in the constitution is there a requirement that the laws passed by congress make sense....

Explains a lot doesn't it?

Skallagrim

PS - it does help a little if I tell you that part of what they have to prove to convict you of "structuring" is that you deliberately divided the transaction to avoid reporting it.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

As long as you pay the taxes you'll be fine w/ regard to structuring. It makes more sense to think of structuring as a crime in situations where you have 100k, and you deposit it in $9999 increments. Get it? In that situation you're depositing in such a way as to avoid having to report it. That's bad.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

That's not it.

If you bring the $12k over, do not report it on your income and the IRS notices, they will bill you for taxes due plus interest and penalties. You say "opps, forgot (or didn't know I had to)" and pay up, or set up a payment plan and all is OK. Actually you don't even have to explain why you omitted that income if you agree to pay.

However, if you bring the money over in several small amounts, don't claim the income and they catch you, your actions show intent, and that's why structuring is treated more harshly.

If you claim it and pay in a timely manner, you're in compliance and how you brought the money over is irrelevant.

Remember, the primary job of the IRS is to get the money. They are not an arm of the DOJ.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

Oh, btw, my bank has now informed me that all transactions 3k+ are submitted. It's no longer 10k.

Mega

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, btw, my bank has now informed me that all transactions 3k+ are submitted. It's no longer 10k.

Mega

[/ QUOTE ]

A friend of mine who is a CPA once told me that $10k was a myth, that banks were required to report all non-payroll deposits that totaled more than $5k in a calendar year.

How compliant your individual bank is, or how closely they pay attention is the x factor. The banking industry in general dislikes what they feel to be spying on their customers.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

The requirement to report any CASH transaction 10,000 or over is not a myth. Note I said cash though. Since that law all sorts of other reporting laws and regulations covering a variety of transactions have been put on the books.

Are there no bankers here on 2+2 to describe them in detail?

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

The law is convoluted and also deputizes the banks to enforce money laundering statutes. Its lack of success is reason for hope when it comes to the UIGEA.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

The requirement to report any CASH transaction 10,000 or over is not a myth.

OK. Understood. But OP's transaction was not cash, it was probably a check. We now need a banker to tell us if an EFT is deemed cash by the law.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

I was told the check to myself for 3k was going to be sent in. I mean, I just wanted some cash to play live, so I wrote a check to myself.

So basically, when I deposited the 3k, they sent in paperwork and when I took it out, they sent it in again?

Totally bogus, but at least I pay my taxes.

Mega

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
The requirement to report any CASH transaction 10,000 or over is not a myth.

OK. Understood. But OP's transaction was not cash, it was probably a check. We now need a banker to tell us if an EFT is deemed cash by the law.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same reporting requirements apply to any monetary instrument over $10K coming from outside the US. And the crime of structuring also applies to such transactions.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol sup bro, who are you? As it is clear you either know me or know of me, but have some outdated information.

Skall, what do you mean by structuring transactions? Obv not reporting income as to avoid taxes is a crime, and is simply stupid in my mind when you have wire transfers and checks to show income. Except for losses to offset wins, the irs will unfortunately get its share of the pie from me. I guess by structuring you meant some way to conceal money.

[/ QUOTE ]

How close to the wind are you willing to sail?

If you want to get your money from a poker site and are willing to do a little work for it I can tell you how to do it an only God and yourself would ever know about it. You could spend it to your little hearts content and the IRS never know about it.

Wait a minute there is someone at my door.

OK it's only the IRS, time to dazzle them with my brilliance or baffle them wiht my.....


D$D<-- PM me as long as you are not an IRS agent, I've made all the "charitable donations" I'm going to make this year.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

Legality and Withdrawl? Is that a down-South cash-out issue?

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

You should be more concerned about filing form TDF 90-22.1 than the questions you asked.

Jimbo

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should be more concerned about filing form TDF 90-22.1 than the questions you asked.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy that is a stretch!


D$D

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should be more concerned about filing form TDF 90-22.1 than the questions you asked.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy that is a stretch!


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate. He did seem most concerned about not breaking any laws and if he has failed to file that form he is breaking one that has been very strictly enforced since 2004.

Jimbo

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The requirement to report any CASH transaction 10,000 or over is not a myth.

OK. Understood. But OP's transaction was not cash, it was probably a check. We now need a banker to tell us if an EFT is deemed cash by the law.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same reporting requirements apply to any monetary instrument over $10K coming from outside the US. And the crime of structuring also applies to such transactions.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI - the point of my CPA friend's comment that the $10,000 number was a myth was not that it didn't exists, but that the reporting threshhold for non payroll deposits is actually much lower.

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should be more concerned about filing form TDF 90-22.1 than the questions you asked.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy that is a stretch!


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate. He did seem most concerned about not breaking any laws and if he has failed to file that form he is breaking one that has been very strictly enforced since 2004.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i have no idea what that form is or what law it pertains to. What is it?

Thanks

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

TDF 90-22 is the form for reporting transactions over 10K.

You dont need that form at this point. You have money in a offshore poker account. You are not in a "single transaction" where you need to move it all at once. Move it to your home account in less than 10K increments each month. Your bank will do whatever other reporting is needed. You declare all the winnings at tax time and you will be ok.

And if you are gonna make this much money at poker, HIRE AN ACCOUNTANT to answer your questions rather than rely on 2+2. The cost will probably be less than your expected return for 2 days play, and it will be advice you can trust.

Skallagrim

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
TDF 90-22 is the form for reporting transactions over 10K.

You dont need that form at this point. You have money in a offshore poker account. You are not in a "single transaction" where you need to move it all at once. Move it to your home account in less than 10K increments each month. Your bank will do whatever other reporting is needed. You declare all the winnings at tax time and you will be ok.

And if you are gonna make this much money at poker, HIRE AN ACCOUNTANT to answer your questions rather than rely on 2+2. The cost will probably be less than your expected return for 2 days play, and it will be advice you can trust.

Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

He was talking about the Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts form I thought. That was originally passed so that any taxes you paid overseas you got credit for on your US taxes if you were a citizen.

I do see the IRS seems to have after the Patriot Act taken that and turned it on its ear.

I think the OP really does need to seriously consider at least more research in this matter.

Most people don't know the IRS's idea of fair taxes on gambling, not that fair ever meant a thing to the IRS.

IMO if your single site bankroll ever gets over $1k you need to cash out and start keeping some seriously detailed records. Even more so if you play cahs games. The IRS's idea of sessions is really wierd.

Too many people think you can net out your winnings and call it good.

If this withdraw spans much over a quarter or two the OP could be in serious money trouble and likely break even on $20k assuming a year or longer playing time, session by session accounting, the lawyers and accounts fees, not to mention the back taxes and potential penalties.

Given some mix of all of the above, if the site is located in anything remotely consider a vacation friendly country I'd consider flying there if it was an option. Take the wife and or girlfriend buying her some US made jewelery and blowing most of it there or at least off shore.

If even half of the assumptions are correct and there was no other reason for the IRS to look at him due to his "real" world tax picture, asking the IRS to take a big piece out of not only his poker bankroll but getting on their radar screen permantly vs a freeroll vacation....

I'd sail.


D$D

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
TDF 90-22 is the form for reporting transactions over 10K.


[/ QUOTE ]

You would think an attorney would know better than this. D$D is correct as to what this form is for and when it is required. I do agree with Skall on two things, hire an accountant and be very careful who you pay attention to in this forum.

Jimbo

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

Ooops, I got the form numbers wrong...shouldn't post when I am under the influences of painkillers (dental work)(but then again, it was a game not to identify the form wasn't it? you could have said what the form was for...).

This is exactly why the OP should hire a personal accountant, not ask 2+2.

Actually though, money in a poker site account is pretty clearly not money that requires a foreign bank account report. Neteller and any similar e-wallets are an open question. The IRS seems to take the position that it applies, however, so the safer policy is to report a balance in an offshhore e-wallet if the balance at any time exceeds 10K. As a practical matter, however, this is still primarily a tax issue, as failing to report the foreign account under these dubious circumstances (is it a covered account?) is not likely to be a problem if the income is properly reported and the corrext taxes are paid.

Skallagrim

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ooops, I got the form numbers wrong...shouldn't post when I am under the influences of painkillers (dental work)(but then again, it was a game not to identify the form wasn't it? you could have said what the form was for...).

This is exactly why the OP should hire a personal accountant, not ask 2+2.

Actually though, money in a poker site account is pretty clearly not money that requires a foreign bank account report. Neteller and any similar e-wallets are an open question. The IRS seems to take the position that it applies, however, so the safer policy is to report a balance in an offshhore e-wallet if the balance at any time exceeds 10K. As a practical matter, however, this is still primarily a tax issue, as failing to report the foreign account under these dubious circumstances (is it a covered account?) is not likely to be a problem if the income is properly reported and the corrext taxes are paid.

Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

From a little more reading it seems the IRS might take the new use of the form to require the use of the form when the total of all your poker accounts exceeds $10k, since all poker accounts are offshore as far as I know, not just a single account or transaction.

As it is getting to the point the IRS seems to want to know where every dime you might have is as a US citizen.

I ofen ask at a register if they still take cash?

When they laugh, I say; "of course with three forms of ID and a note from my Mother explaining where I actually got the cash......"


D$D's October goal is to put a smile on everyone's face this month!

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

The reporting of foreign accounts does not apply to every conceivable account, just "financial accounts." Does that include poker site accounts? A poker site is hardly a "financial" entity. But who knows how far the IRS will take their interpretations, though they have yet to state explicitly that money in offshore gaming company accounts are foreign financial accounts.

D$D is right about the rule applying when the sum of all your "financial" accounts is over 10K. So if you had, say, 5k in Neteller and 6K in the Bank of Costa Rica, you most likely have to file this form.

Skallagrim

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
The reporting of foreign accounts does not apply to every conceivable account, just "financial accounts." Does that include poker site accounts? A poker site is hardly a "financial" entity. But who knows how far the IRS will take their interpretations, though they have yet to state explicitly that money in offshore gaming company accounts are foreign financial accounts.

D$D is right about the rule applying when the sum of all your "financial" accounts is over 10K. So if you had, say, 5k in Neteller and 6K in the Bank of Costa Rica, you most likely have to file this form.

Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate telling the IRS anything, but if I had a total of $10 or more on offshore accounts I'd file the form. If you read the underlying statute and recent IRS actions, it is clear at least the IRS considers money even in a poker site account as a financial account.

But you are damned if you do and damned if you don't, as is always the case with the IRS. If you don't file you break this rule, if you do file they will want to know where the $10k came from, then next year if there is any change in the account values they will want to know why.


D$D

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

post removed

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

D$D wrote "If you read the underlying statute and recent IRS actions, it is clear at least the IRS considers money even in a poker site account as a financial account."

Do you have any support for this D$D or is this just your prediction of what the IRS will do? I couldn't find anything specific, and I would find it hard to fill out the form. I have no idea what bank FTP keeps my money in, if its a bank at all, much less what country its in. So one should report "11k held by **Poker, country unknown, financial institution unknown, account listed under unknown name and number and accessed through a screen name and password unrelated to financial institution." Thankfully (for this issue) my bankroll has never even come close to 10K.

Skallagrim

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

[ QUOTE ]
D$D wrote "If you read the underlying statute and recent IRS actions, it is clear at least the IRS considers money even in a poker site account as a financial account."

Do you have any support for this D$D or is this just your prediction of what the IRS will do? I couldn't find anything specific, and I would find it hard to fill out the form. I have no idea what bank FTP keeps my money in, if its a bank at all, much less what country its in. So one should report "11k held by **Poker, country unknown, financial institution unknown, account listed under unknown name and number and accessed through a screen name and password unrelated to financial institution." Thankfully (for this issue) my bankroll has never even come close to 10K.

Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

If the Gov't is even 1/2 as serious about making an exmple out of a poker pro, on-line or not as some of the published reports claim and I had over $10k in on-line I would fill out a TD F 90-22.1.

Part II Q 21, check other and write in "on-line poker account."

Q 23, my FT username DeadMoneyDad
Q 24, unknown
Q 25, unknown
Q 26, check yes
Q 27, FullTilt Solutions Inc. or Fucanan
Q 28, Kenth
Q 29, "blank"
Q 30, Unknown -- but I could find it if needed
Q 31, 1400 Liberty Ridge Drive
Q 32, Wayne
Q 33, PA
Q 34, 19087
Q 35, US


At least if push can to shove in an IRS battle you could show your good faith effort to comply with every law you found even remotely associated with your legal poker play.

The fact the information given to the IRS is almost totally useless is priceless IMPO!


D$D<--I may deposit $10k on FT and report the taxes on my $200 of winnings just to mess with the IRS and FT!

Re: Legality and Withdrawl
 

anyone have experience withdrawing from Bodog? Just got a check for $1k from some finance company that I assume Bodog uses. Anyone see any problems in cashing it (i will report to IRS obv)?