KQo losing ground on the turn
 

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero...

UTG seems competent, SLAG, 26/10.3/2.5 (107), no relevant notes (the closest being PFR with A9o in CO then raising flop with TPMK).

MP3 is as loose as possible, a bit AG PF, passive after: 94/6.0/0.65, no relevant notes...just ATC.

BB is not as loose but similar: 61/7.1/0.50.

The ace on the turn is bad news, and the c/r is worse. Mind you, UTG did not raise PF and his range for that is pretty wide, but certainly includes a bunch of aces...and two passives are along for the ride. I think I should fold here.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

Raise this up preflop. Fold the turn.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

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Fold the turn.

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Check the outs and odds again. I think hero has a peel/fold UI here. Looks like UTG has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] x[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] quite often. I suppose it could be 99 sometimes, too.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

For starters, raise freplop.

Next, why did you bet the ace on the turn? Do you think none of your opponents has an ace? Do you think that anyone holding an ace is going to fold? The problem with bet/fold in this instance is that you have the odds to call for your 2pr-or-better outs. Check, see what MP3 does and if he bets what happens after him; it doesn't really kill you if it gets checked through, and since it looks like nobody's folding anyway why worry about giving a free card?

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

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Check, see what MP3 does and if he bets what happens after him; it doesn't really kill you if it gets checked through, and since it looks like nobody's folding anyway why worry about giving a free card?

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I'm fine with the turn bet. It gets value out of the potential flush draw and gutshot straight draws that are out there. It also gets value out of a hand like Q9. There's no particular reason to think an ace is out there yet given all the flop coldcalls (which is often an indication of better than a naked A-high compared to if they had just called one bet).

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

raise preflop. youve hand is better than SLAGs range. hand then goes differently.

turn CRs such as this signal strength but when slag does it it doesnt mean the immortal nuts. calling doesnt mean you have to call the inevitable river bet UI although youll see people at your tables calling all day every day in this sort of spot.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

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why did you bet the ace on the turn? Do you think none of your opponents has an ace?

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I bet because I think there's a reasonable chance that none of them has an ace, I think I'll find out right here if one of them does, and I'm going to make the draws pay for their card while I think I'm ahead.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

Grunch:

I think the preflop call is fine. The raise is good because you are getting the money in the pot while you are ahead.

The bet on the turn? I think okay because you can't always check behind. Did you think they would fold? I find it usually really hard to get 3 of these guys to fold.. so that is why maybe I check here. I think a bet is best here with fewer callers

I think you are up against Ax maybe he has an ace and a flush draw. I think you have 5 outs to improve to 2 pair or 3 of a kind. So around 8 to 1 and the pot now is giving you 11 to 1 .. because you bet and had a couple callers I think it is correct to call.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

Raise it preflop.

As played, I'd call the turn raise. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

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Grunch:

I think the preflop call is fine

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rhayder, good grunch but Im going to ask, mainly for your benefit, why do you think preflop is fine?

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

UTG I think it is limping KQs is okay because it hopefully lets more limpers in before someone raises behind you. And it if nobody raises it is easier to get away from KQs when you get a bad flop. So I guess not raising KQs makes it an easier hand to play.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

* g *

I think you can't fold now because it's 11.25:1 to you now and the others probably call behind too -&gt; you're getting 11.25:1-13.25:1 on the call.

It is not a clear cut call though as your outs aren't necessarily clean. You might be against aces up, Q gives JT a straight, and there's two FD's there. Thin but I still peel.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

limping here isnt that bad but raising is better

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UTG I think it is limping KQs is okay because it hopefully lets more limpers in before someone raises behind you.

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well your UTG+1 after a SLAG limps. You dont know if someone is raising behind you and some people (goodplayers, lags and maniacs) have a reasonably wide betting range then youll find yourself OOP in a multiway pot. I'd rather play it 2-3 handed with 'the lead' than 5-6way, especially when the flop is one like in OP.

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And it if nobody raises it is easier to get away from KQs when you get a bad flop.

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same could be said for AKs too

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So I guess not raising KQs makes it an easier hand to play.

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well we differ then. lets say we raise and get 3 bet. typical 3 bettors have a narrow range so ill be able to let go of my hand with more confidence postflop. compare this to when we limp then get raised....is he raising me the flop or turn with a worse kicker or a draw? hmmm...tough decisions coming. yep, by limping often basically ahve to hit the flop to win..when you raise you might actually take it down with a cbet UI when your opponents also miss.

raising is also good for shania

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

I actually think that raising is also good .. it might even be best to raise sometimes and limp sometimes your preference since they are both close.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

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I actually think that raising is also good .. it might even be best to raise sometimes and limp sometimes your preference since they are both close.

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Except they aren't close. You don't want to play KQ to a raise behind you because it does so poorly against a large chunk of raising hands. All hands are easy to play incorrectly. You are losing a lot of value limping this at the micros. What hands are you raising from EP? Probably not enough.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

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I actually think that raising is also good .. it might even be best to raise sometimes and limp sometimes your preference since they are both close.

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well, if you think this is close between a raise and a call then I think you missed my points. It isnt close. This is a raise. Limping is asking for trouble. I dont mean to beat you up over this but getting preflop right is pretty important as it makes postflop easier. Also I just checked my dusty preflop chart and it says this is a call...but remember preflop charts are default plays only that are designed to keep people out of trouble whilst learning. they also cant cover that many situations so it is up to readers to figure out when to deviate whcih is half the fun and satisfaction of this crazy game. Once you get comfortable with the chart and your game if you want to get better then you gotta start taking off teh training wheels and this is an example of that.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

Aaron:

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I'm fine with the turn bet. It gets value out of the potential flush draw and gutshot straight draws that are out there. It also gets value out of a hand like Q9. There's no particular reason to think an ace is out there yet given all the flop coldcalls (which is often an indication of better than a naked A-high compared to if they had just called one bet).

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Is this a limit-based play? Given that the most-likely draws are something plus an ace OC? C'mon. *

Herman:

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I think I'll find out right here if one of them does

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Yeah, so you just found out. So, all this becomes is an outs vs. pot odds question, and you should at least take a shot a working that out for yourself.

*Edit: "charge the flush draw"? By giving them the right odds to call. O rly?

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

grunching:

Why didn't you raise preflop? You have a premium hand.

Yah, I think you are toasted here. UTG is not raising to protect his vulnerable hand. He is raising for value and looping the rest of the players in to pay him off. Prob he has top pair, and a flush draw to boot.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

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Aaron:

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I'm fine with the turn bet. It gets value out of the potential flush draw and gutshot straight draws that are out there. It also gets value out of a hand like Q9. There's no particular reason to think an ace is out there yet given all the flop coldcalls (which is often an indication of better than a naked A-high compared to if they had just called one bet).

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Is this a limit-based play? Given that the most-likely draws are something plus an ace OC? C'mon. *

*Edit: "charge the flush draw"? By giving them the right odds to call. O rly?

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Value betting is the primary skill of limit hold'em. You are trying to maximize on the small edges that the game allows. You make money if they call with a flush draw.

I don't agree with the premise that the most likely draws are something plus an ace OC. There are lots of gutshots out there, (QJ/QT/JT/87/86/76) plus a number of worse Kx hands (KQ/KJ/KT/K8s), some worse 9x hands (Q9/J9/T9), and flush draw hands.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

Grunch:

Raise preflop. KQs has a decent edge and plays well both multiway and less.

Don't fold the turn. The pot's large, and while you probably don't have the best hand any more, you have sufficient outs and overlay (even discounting the hearts a bit) to call. Dump the river if you don't improve.

Re: KQo losing ground on the turn
 

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Herman:

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I think I'll find out right here if one of them does

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Yeah, so you just found out. So, all this becomes is an outs vs. pot odds question, and you should at least take a shot a working that out for yourself.

*Edit: "charge the flush draw"? By giving them the right odds to call. O rly?

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My shot at the odds--now--is that I'm getting about 11:1 and I need about 8:1 except I'm not closing the action and my heart outs are tainted. To my mind that makes this a marginal call.

As for a hostile draw, they already *have* the odds to call but if I don't bet they get infinite odds because the draw costs them nothing. (I think that's an SSHE quote, but maybe I have the wrong authors.)

Oh, and KQs in that position is a call in my not-so-dusty starting hands chart, and that's why I called. I don't have the experience and judgment to stray very far from the charts just yet. However, I want to increase my PFR% a bit and that's a logical hand to add to my repertoire.