tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

opponent is about standard 2p2 tag numbers, prob toward the looser side. he certainly gets out of line a fair amount, but nothing too bad recently. we talk a bunch and respect each other a lot fwiw, not sure if that matters.


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero: $2,973.00
klickitat: $1,032.00
alkim416: $179.00
WiltOnTilt: $1,000.00
TheTaker: $1,039.00
bamboo6386: $1,394.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 Players)
alkim416 folds, <font color="red">WiltOnTilt raises to $35.00</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $30.00, klickitat folds

Flop: ($80) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, WiltOnTilt checks

Turn: ($80) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $65.00</font>, <font color="red">WiltOnTilt raises to $230.00</font>, Hero folds?

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

I would call, it's card of hard to imagine him checking behind this flop with a big hand. That being said, the river will be pretty difficult to play vs him so folding probably isn't that bad, I just think it's too weak in this spot.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

only hand i could see him showing up w/ really is something like 67cc tho I've prob only played about 1.5k hands lifetime vs wilt.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

this is a flop i like to donk, sometimes, since i dont really like c/c or c/r a ton.

I don't imagine he's slowplaying a flopped big piece, so if he's got a good hand its most likely 54/64 or maybe some combo draw. certainly tough to play, but if you continue i kind of like a smaller 3bet. folding is a viable option too.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

I think calling the turn is fine, it will just be difficult on the river to figure out when to call/fold and if you always call the river then the turn is prob -ev?

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

call

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

I would probably fold.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

call and check/evaluate on most rivers

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

I think its reasonable to assume that he knows his line looks like air, which gives me more reason to fold.

I think this is a random pair that 2 pair'ed the turn a lot

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

I cant see how b/f ever can be a good line here.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

i dont think i can play any river profitably if i call.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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i dont think i can play any river profitably if i call.

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Then I guess you should have checked turn aswell [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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i dont think i can play any river profitably if i call.

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that's ok as long as you are making a bigger profit on the turn to compensate

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

It would be nice to have a feel for your betting frequency in this spot.

It's annoying but I might just fold. When solid players pull a weird/funky line that doesn't seem to represent anything they likely have something.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

What hands you check behind on this flop? Would he really check with 54/64/44 here? A picked up club draw+combo draw seems more likely?

call and call again on the river if a non club/non str8-card hits.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

I feel like this is a situation where you're probably ahead of his range, but it's -EV to call. Villain is a good player, he has position, and he's likely to play perfectly against you on the river. I personally prefer a fold.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

I would never fold here unless I had history with him that suggests that I do otherwise (you said he gets out of line... would he check behind on a flop like that with a hand that beats you? Probably not, IMHO). Most likely worst case scenario is you're up against 54 or 44, and I don't think that's very likely at all.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

Someone explain to me exactly what it means to say "he's likely to play perfectly against you on the river".

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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It's annoying but I might just fold. When solid players pull a weird/funky line that doesn't seem to represent anything they likely have something.

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This is something I've learned the hard way.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

also, isn't Dazarath the guy that embarassed a fish in a 5/10 live game by making him show his hand after he got stacked ?

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

turn is most deff a standard call, those who say fold are just trying to slime there way out of facing a tough river decision.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

i push here. This looks like a combo draw so hard.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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also, isn't Dazarath the guy that embarassed a fish in a 5/10 live game by making him show his hand after he got stacked ?

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Yes.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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i push here. This looks like a combo draw so hard.

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rofl, this is so bad.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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Someone explain to me exactly what it means to say "he's likely to play perfectly against you on the river".

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Ok, maybe my choice of words weren't correct. My point is that if we call, it should be pretty obvious what our hand is. Therefore when he has some type of combo draw, he can always valuebet when he hits and he can bluff with the correct frequency. I know this is all just a bunch of mumbo jumbo, but without a range it's kind of difficult to show my point.

For example, let's say a spade or a club hits the river, what percentage of the time should we call his river bet? It can't be 100%, nor can it be 0%. If it's 0%, then we're calling his turn bet to dodge over half the deck. But I think that even if we call the river the correct percentage of the time, it's still -EV for us.

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also, isn't Dazarath the guy that embarassed a fish in a 5/10 live game by making him show his hand after he got stacked ?

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I don't quite get if your point is that I'm an ass or what, but I find this to be pretty irrelevant to this thread. Unless you're trying to show that my poker play is somehow terrible due to my lack of live etiquette.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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i push here. This looks like a combo draw so hard.

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rofl, this is so bad.

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yeah ur right my bad

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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Therefore when he has some type of combo draw, he can always valuebet when he hits and he can bluff with the correct frequency.

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What is the correct frequency with which to bluff and value bet ? This knowledge could really help my game.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

Arrrrrrrrr in.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

I think I'd fold here.

Becomes too tough to play this oop on the river. He'll have air here a decent amount, but even his air likely has at least 6 outs against you and there's a good chance he'll follow through with another bluff on the river. Also there's a reasonable chance he has something like 44, 54, 64. Small chance he's mixing it up on the flop with a set or 78 too - this is the kinda thing I try against a good regular once in a blue moon since it's so hard to read. Especially one I have a lot of history with.

So yeah, with a fairly small amount invested I fold here to avoid a really tough river situation.

If you do call here, I think you have to call almost any river.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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Arrrrrrrrr in.

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are you serious? i just said that and jsnipes said it was bad.

i think i know why its bad because even if we are ahead of his range the money villain will make when he calls(i.e. has us drawing dead/slim) doesnt justify a push.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

i think both are super close and have very high variance. but call/call MIGHT have higher EV.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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i push here. This looks like a combo draw so hard.

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rofl, this is so bad.

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yeah ur right my bad

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sorry, i should have expanded. basically i think when called you are going to be in very bad shape and even if he calls off w/ random draw he's going to have plenty of outs. the vast majority of his folding range is going to be pure air IMO and his calling range is going to crush us. perhaps some think that he is almost never bluffing this turn (i don't think its the case) and think that it's comprised of all combo draws (I also don't subscribe to this belief) in which case pushing would make sense.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

Do you think call turn c/f river is total spew ? I can't see him bluff often on the river if you b/c that turn.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

Seems like a super standard call to me.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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Do you think call turn c/f river is total spew ? I can't see him bluff often on the river if you b/c that turn.

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lol really? thats a fantastic board to bluff river on, like 525125125% of jfish's range after bet-calling turn is draws, with or without one mid pair. Any clean river is open season to bluff.

so, c/c good rivers and c/f bad ones seems pretty reasonable, i think.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

agaist wiltontilt fold here and dont even really think twice about it, even if your good here he can out play us on the river to often with position to profitably play. And also the pots not huge on the turn so going all in is risky

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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Do you think call turn c/f river is total spew ? I can't see him bluff often on the river if you b/c that turn.

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lol really? thats a fantastic board to bluff river on, like 525125125% of jfish's range after bet-calling turn is draws, with or without one mid pair. Any clean river is open season to bluff.

so, c/c good rivers and c/f bad ones seems pretty reasonable, i think.

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That's what I meant by "often", I would call only on blank rivers but there are not a lot of blanks [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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Therefore when he has some type of combo draw, he can always valuebet when he hits and he can bluff with the correct frequency.

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What is the correct frequency with which to bluff and value bet ? This knowledge could really help my game.

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Yeah. Mine too.

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

hot damn i wish i had wiltontilts image, id be outplaying fools left and right on possible future streets

Re: tough spot vs wiltontilt
 

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hot damn i wish i had wiltontilts image, id be outplaying fools left and right on possible future streets

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seriously

wtf checks behind and then raises turn

o ya air