Another one from a video
 

Dunno about this one. I play differently nowadays, especially when I'm focusing super hard on the games and am trying to get a read on players.

I open in the SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The BB calls. I don’t have much on him at all; he seems a bit aggressive but my reads are fairly limited. His stack is shorter than average but not short enough for me to believe he’s a stackoffmonkey. He has done nothing yet to stand out at the table, but 1-2 other players have, which is to say, by not standing out he may be standing out a bit. Or not.

The flop (4SB) is A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I bet, and he calls (6SB). The turn is the 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I check, he bets, and I call (5BB). The river is the 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I check, he bets, and I call (7BB).

Re: Another one from a video
 

i feel like not enough bets went in considering we have the second nuts. my first instinct is to checkraise the river. i like the turn line you took.

Re: Another one from a video
 

We have 4th nuts Behind 6x, AA, 88. Though they are all unlikely enough that I think some bets were left at the table. Are you taking it slow just because you're likely splitting or that he will just fold if you bet?

Re: Another one from a video
 

good point, not the second nuts. i didn't even think of aa and 88 for some reason -- i suppose based on the play. anyway good catch; thanks.

Re: Another one from a video
 

dont call river if your checking, get as much money in as possible. If your worried about the highly improbable nuts your losing EV constantly.

Re: Another one from a video
 

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dont call river if your checking, get as much money in as possible. If your worried about the highly improbable nuts your losing EV constantly.
Get your stack in the middle if possible after that turn

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Do we have replies to the wrong forum now too? There is no "getting our stack in the middle" dude.

Re: Another one from a video
 

yeah I accidentally clicked micro stakes limit instead of NL, easy to do at 4:00 am after no sleep, sorry!! but anyways concept is same, gotta put a raise in there

Re: Another one from a video
 

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i feel like not enough bets went in considering we have the second nuts. my first instinct is to checkraise the river. i like the turn line you took.

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Just curious (genuinely), what range of hands do you think call a river c/r vs 3bet vs fold?

Rob

Re: Another one from a video
 

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

It is WA/WB and the only hand that you really don't want him to have is something like QQ or JJ. You just aren't going to see them often enough given the action to do anything else imo. If you pop the turn he will just fold the crap so he is basically freerolling you when he calls or reraises.

Re: Another one from a video
 

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I open in the SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The BB calls. I don’t have much on him at all; he seems a bit aggressive but my reads are fairly limited.

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If I took this route (checking the turn and river because I think he bets it very often), I would check-raise-call the river. Given the 666 on the board, he's likely to be betting with a lot of hands as bluffs, but he will pay off with a lot of hands that he thought he was value betting (any PP, river flush -- and maybe he'll look you up with K-high, but you don't need these extra calls to get value).

Re: Another one from a video
 

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I open in the SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The BB calls. I don’t have much on him at all; he seems a bit aggressive but my reads are fairly limited.

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If I took this route (checking the turn and river because I think he bets it very often), I would check-raise-call the river. Given the 666 on the board, he's likely to be betting with a lot of hands as bluffs, but he will pay off with a lot of hands that he thought he was value betting (any PP, river flush -- and maybe he'll look you up with K-high, but you don't need these extra calls to get value).

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You think a river flush/K-high really calls here? (FWIW I doubt K-high bets the river).

Rob

Re: Another one from a video
 

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I open in the SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The BB calls. I don’t have much on him at all; he seems a bit aggressive but my reads are fairly limited.

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If I took this route (checking the turn and river because I think he bets it very often), I would check-raise-call the river. Given the 666 on the board, he's likely to be betting with a lot of hands as bluffs, but he will pay off with a lot of hands that he thought he was value betting (any PP, river flush -- and maybe he'll look you up with K-high, but you don't need these extra calls to get value).

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You think a river flush/K-high really calls here? (FWIW I doubt K-high bets the river).

Rob

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It depends a bit on the stakes, but yes for the flush at the low-mid micros and sometimes even at the high-micros. I think there are lots of players aren't good enough to walk away from hands that are obviously beat. For example, I don't expect players to fold the low boat on a double paired board even though two other players are betting/raising. I think players will have a hard time folding a flush because it's a flush, especially if a call completes the action.

K-high is admittedly a bit of a stretch, but I think getting K-high to call is just icing on the cake.

Re: Another one from a video
 

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I open in the SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The BB calls. I don’t have much on him at all; he seems a bit aggressive but my reads are fairly limited.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I took this route (checking the turn and river because I think he bets it very often), I would check-raise-call the river. Given the 666 on the board, he's likely to be betting with a lot of hands as bluffs, but he will pay off with a lot of hands that he thought he was value betting (any PP, river flush -- and maybe he'll look you up with K-high, but you don't need these extra calls to get value).

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You think a river flush/K-high really calls here? (FWIW I doubt K-high bets the river).

Rob

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It depends a bit on the stakes, but yes for the flush at the low-mid micros and sometimes even at the high-micros. I think there are lots of players aren't good enough to walk away from hands that are obviously beat. For example, I don't expect players to fold the low boat on a double paired board even though two other players are betting/raising. I think players will have a hard time folding a flush because it's a flush, especially if a call completes the action.

K-high is admittedly a bit of a stretch, but I think getting K-high to call is just icing on the cake.

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Hmm. How often do you think a flush bet-calls the river after playing it this way on the flop? I'm trying to put a realistic range on how often he'll have a hand that I can beat that won't fold to a raise here for some of my EV calcs, but it's kinda tough. I feel like stubborn/aggressive players often raise the flop with a flush draw, especially in blind vs blind situations, and I also feel that's also the case with most pocket pairs preflop. I've tried to do the EV calcs in my head but it's a very close spot re: the river play. I'm trying to do the river calcs on a bet/call vs an unknown who seems mostly sane (based on the fact that I hadn't observed anything yet in ~15 hands, which is usually often enough to detect maniacal or loosepassive behavior), but it's very difficult without either feeling to pessimistic or too optimistic (K-high falls way into the optimistic category).

Off the top of my head I felt like we'd be losing 10% of the time, winning vs a bluff about 30%, chopping about 30% of the time, with the rest of the 30% of the time mixed between hands that could bet-call and hands that would bet-fold. These are all admittedly off the cuff and I feel like they actually may be a bit too optimistic, but it's hard to determine as the line I took is passive and strange enough that I encourage more bluffs and more bad value bets (it's why I took the line, of course), to the point that the bluff and "valuebet" lines become quite blurry and are actually significantly higher when combined than the % of chopping hands and % of better hands.

I went ahead and spelled out all of my thoughts in my blog, but I think between Shill's post and my posts here I've spelled out most of it again. Basically the whole hand comes down to the application of "having a better hand 66% of the time you are called," but it feels counterintuitive because I expect to have the best hand or a chop ~90% of the time at least when I get the opportunity to checkraise.

Rob

Re: Another one from a video
 

I saw this on the vid and was pretty impressed.

FWIW I think you played it perfectly.

I don't like a CR anywhere, but especially on the River. You don't really gain anything from K high because I doubt it would call, you might gain a bit from a flush or an 8, I'm not 100% certain he calls here with these hands, but I'm confident enough to think it would show a meager profit. The problem with a CR on the river is the line you took, and your perception(or lack thereof) of your opponent. If he is perceptive enough to put you on a flush draw, he might be willing to 3-bet with an A or possibly even a 8. When he 3-bets our winning chances go down the drain, but we still have to call for what is at best a split pot for us most of the time.

If your having a tough decision, it should be between betting out and check-calling the river. There are decent arguments for betting out, I can see a few hands calling on the river that wouldn't bet if you check to them.