The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

Way too often on this forum, I see people advocate playing much too nitty in early levels or just flat out not thinking. Two recent hands where this really struck me were hand where darinvg raised qjs from the CO and Danny Ocean raised A5s from the CO. The consensus was that preflop was bad, others were more extreme calling preflop “not even close to marginal” . In MTTs with similar stack sizes preflop is standard, this is either because most good MTTers have big preflop leaks or more likely they can play these hands for a positive expectation at these blind levels with these stack sizes. Obviously CEV =! $EV and $EV in MTTs =! $EV in SNGs. SNGs do encourage more nitty play because you can gain equity with other people clashing. However I think it is reasonable to look at why people are regularly passing up spots +CEV spots and with all the information available why no one on the STTF has ever really looked into this.

Here is a decent example most people would advocate limping or raising AKo UTG and most would suggest that KQs is an instamuck. It doesn’t make sense to me that a hand changes one degree and it goes from a horrible fold to a horrible limp/raise, I would suggest a reason why this attitude is prevalent is because STTF has certain dogmatic practices and very few people are interested in changing that. It is also interesting that nobody is considering changing this despite the fact people are constantly complaining how tough the games are.

The most prevalent counterargument is that opening up your game may increase your ROI, but would require dropping tables and decrease your hourly. This is a fine argument for one’s individual strategy, however it is a bad argument when discussing the strategy of one isolated hand.

A more strategical argument would be stack preservation. I don’t know how to respond to this because it is really tough to prove or disprove, even if you knew the expected value of raising it would be irrelevant (unless it is neutral or negative) without knowing the standard deviation. If anyone plays like this in midlevels and has a large enough database post it, but I highly doubt anyone will. Furthermore everyone’s expectation isn’t the same CEV is dependent on several things primarily your opponents skill, how your opponents view you and your postflop skill. If raising A5s in the CO will show a negative expectation the problem might not be the preflop play, but the inability for an individual to have a positive postflop expectation.

I fully expect someone is thinking “what if you raise QJs in the CO the BB calls and the flop is 8TA with a flushdraw what do you do?” Or “If the flop is AJx and the BTN calls you are OOP with middle pair not a very good spot.”
You will get in tough spots have enough faith to play well in those spots you can’t have also I can create any doomsday scenario for any hand and you will be in a tough spot. You raise AA villain calls flop is T98hh you bet, villain winks scratches his nose and shoves for 2x pot. WHAT DO YOU DO? Bad situations happen poker is pretty easy, but it isn’t a solved game, think, hand read and determine what to do. But what about people who will peel with 50%, work with poker stove see how there preflop range fares on that flop, see how often your cbets need to work, remember them peeling with stuff like 76s is good for you they are calling with worse hands and you have position. Furthermore the worst players in tournaments are likely to blow their stack early you want to get in pots HU vs. idiots so you can get there chips. If they don’t fold don’t try to bluff them, but remember that TP is the nuts vs. them and keep betting.

People may argue raising this light will ruin your image for later stages, firstly you are still playing relatively tight, raising like 10% from the button isn’t really laggy, secondly villains are rarely observant enough and thirdly they are much more likely to think you are crazy when you are shoving every hand not because you are raising suited face cards in LP.

Tying in with this in darinvg’s QJs hand he got in a tricky postflop spot and folded midpair. I am unsure whether this fold is good or not, however when I said I might shove people argued it was too FPSY. That isn’t a good counterargument for making or not making play, instead of thinking my hand is X I am supposed to fold, think about what your opponent can have and apply that knowledge, if you think he will play better hands like that fold, but don’t fold because you are afraid of making an FPSY play. FPSY plays are correlated with bad plays, but that doesn’t mean a play is bad because it’s FPSY.

Note I am not suggesting that people start three betting EP raises with T9s or raising the CO with 86o, I am suggesting that there is a lot of equity to be gained in early levels and not trying to gain this equity will likely hurt your ROI. I am also not attempting to argue that this type of play is more important than pushbotting, but rather that it can be a good addition to solid SNG play.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

tl; but did read;

I think everybody see your point. On my (small experienced) everytime I did open my low blind games vs unknown it backfired. The main reason is that most bad player are ok to play a big pot with a crappy hand and I'm not, most to my disadvantage.

I also disagree that there is "lot of equity to be gained in early levels" but there is probably a small one, as everywhere.

I don't understand exactly if you made a theory post (= it should work) or a practical one (= I've done it, it works), also.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

pudge

players usually stay away from playing early when multitabling because when they play early pots they play it all the same.

they always play ak to the felt. they cbet 100% of the time for near pot etc etc.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

There is a huge difference between Darinvgs hand and Dannyoceans hand. We are talking $6.5 and $225. At the $6.5s I would estimate you might see people having wider reraising / 'restealing' raises and that makes it spew when you have to fold to the reraise.

I think alot of the advice given on this forum are to people playing the low buyins and they need a leak free TAG game with good postflop ability before they can loosen their PF standards.

8TA is a reasonable flop for QJ btw [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I dont think raising light ruins your image for future stages, vs observant opponents it might increase the action you get - but what % of opponents are really observant, and of these - which ones will we see again? (At the higher levels, the % increases to both questions obv.) I will also add that I think doing it with position is the most important thing to keep in mind

I will come back to this thread later for hopefully stimulating discussion

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

god dammit, i just wrote a really long reply that disapeard. i hate typing, but ill try to summerize anyway.

I always played sng's with a much more open, gambling style early. stealing from the nits and playing big pots with the lagdonkdorks that would pay off light. You weren't around then, but you may have seen reference to my playing weird. I played em pretty much the same as I play mtt's, or looser.

so, my opinions are from playing 1000's of sng's in the way your talking about.

The style works very well (higher than normal roi's) as long as you have lagdonkdorks at the table. Just stealing small pots from the nits isnt enough to make it worth the chips you bleed when the steals dont work out. you also need those double ups. the nits will rarely double you up early, as they wont risk chips when behind. easy to steal small pots from, but no big ones. the laggy poor players are where the double ups come from, and to have a meaningful advantage at the bubble you need lots of chips. In the early bubble if you have a larger than average stack you cant play hands as easily (too many chips to shove profitably, and a normal raise is vulnerable to resteals from smaller stacks) amd you still cant priftably call the short stack shoves, so the stacks tend to equalize some during this stage. a 300 chips advantage at this point is essentailly meaningless, but a 2000 chip advantage isnt.

in the old 10 hand per round regulars (turbo's hadn't been invented yet) the style worked very well up to 55's. after that the really poor players i would take advantage off start disapearing. You cant steal enough chips from a table full of nit's to make the risk worth the chips acuired. at 109's my roi dropped off sharply, at 215's I'm sure ima lifetime loser.

also, playing this way is highly read dependent. you have to know who the nits are, and you have to know who is playing like a dork. alot of the dorks are occational players, so to know they are playing bad early enough to take advantage of it you have to see it.

I could play this style well 8 tabling, but beyond that you really do start to lose the feel for the different players. hud's help, but not enough to play 20 tables at a time. remeber, when we first started all this, 3 tables was all you were allowed to play.

so, yes, playing a looser style does work, as long as there are people willing to payoff when you hit a hand. The style works much better in mtt's though, and even better in deepstack cash games. the main reason I think most people move up and out of sng's is the better at postflop poker you get,the better off you are playing where you can use it best. In high stake sng nitty tables (at least then) it's very hard to play a loose style and accumulate enough extra chips to offset the risk involved.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

Very interesting discussion. My own take on the matter is much like lacky, and I think failing to exploit bad players early is giving up a lot of $EV.

The tradeoff is basicly: How much $EV do we gain by doubling up early vs. not - and how often do we lose all the $EV when we get stacked trying to double up early.


Knowing the results of these two queries, would be helpful:

Query 1 - Doubling up early:

What is my ROI on SNG's, where I at some point have double the starting-chips at some time during levels 1-2-3?

Query 2 - NOT doubling up early:

What is my ROI on SNG's, where I at NO point have double the starting-chips at some time during levels 1-2-3?


Also knowing how often we get stacked trying to double up early with less that premium hands would be nice, but is much harder to get an accurate number for.

I'll try to get the good people over at the pokertracker Postgres forum to help with the query.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

In moshman's book he explains why doubling up early and taking risks doesn't work.

The reason is that doubling up early does not double your tournement equity.

He gave an example of two other guys in your sng being all in, one eliminated, and one doubling up. And he stated that in the long run BOTH lose from the situation, compared to the player that avoided the all in.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
In moshman's book

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
The reason is that doubling up early does not double your tournement equity.

He gave an example of two other guys in your sng being all in, one eliminated, and one doubling up. And he stated that in the long run BOTH lose from the situation, compared to the player that avoided the all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I have AA and my opponent has KK or AK, we get it aipf, and I beat the odds and actually hold - I lose from this in the long run?

This is a rhetorical question, please dont answer this and ruin what could be a good thread started by pudge. I couldnt resist though

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
The reason is that doubling up early does not double your tournement equity.


[/ QUOTE ]

It does increase your tournament equity though.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

Pudge good stuff as always, and Lacky nice response.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

nice post Pudge.

I play few SnG's anymore, but I still play some MTT and I am mostly learning to play cash.

One problem that I am learning to overcome is playing weaker starting hands KQ, QJ, JT, etc and hitting top pair, but not top kicker. You need to remember that when you play these hands you will almost never have the best hand. So when you get resistance you need to realize you're in trouble and you should probably get away from the hand... but this is not always easy and is, imo, a tough adjustment when opening up your starting hand requirements.

However, as Pudge says, it is important to your game to learn to do this.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[...]I think it is reasonable to look at why people are regularly passing up spots +CEV spots and with all the information available why no one on the STTF has ever really looked into this.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are some who have looked into this in great extend. I am currently investigating my early play in order to find more +CEV spots.

I got inspired by the two following articles) on a competing site no less!):
An alternative take on early play
Alternative take part II

The gist of it is that you might pass up some $EV by not taking it from the fish by challenging post flop with marginal typical -$EV hands.

By that reasoning I have now begun looking at marginal hands (small pairs, suited connectors, obvious steal spots with garbage) in the early stages of the tournament.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

I agree with the sentiment of your post - that it is important not to always just to accept received wisdom about how to play an SNG, or indeed poker, and to understand why you are performing certain actions and what you hope to gain by a result of them.

In the examples you gave of the two hands involving DannyOcean and darinvg I would agree there is a case for playing the hands for a few reasons. One of the more important ones could be to gain post flop skills. This is no reflection on DannyOcean or darinvg, but if you get yourself into these situations in the early part of an SNG, then you are able to quickly learn what hands you should be mucking to c/bets, what players you should call to see what they do on the turn etc.

Even though you may say that it is negative ev for a player who is still learning to do this, he will gain an experience for himself why this is true in certain situations. If the result is that 3% is knocked off the ROI of a player, but the result over a period of time is that he gains a few post flop skills, then that can be no bad thing.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

I play more hands early and gamble early more than most I think. The key is knowing when to slow down postflop because you might be behind, and when to lay it down altogether. At least for me that could only come with a ton of experience, and a whole lot of bad calls along the way.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting discussion. My own take on the matter is much like lacky, and I think failing to exploit bad players early is giving up a lot of $EV.

The tradeoff is basicly: How much $EV do we gain by doubling up early vs. not - and how often do we lose all the $EV when we get stacked trying to double up early.


Knowing the results of these two queries, would be helpful:

Query 1 - Doubling up early:

What is my ROI on SNG's, where I at some point have double the starting-chips at some time during levels 1-2-3?

Query 2 - NOT doubling up early:

What is my ROI on SNG's, where I at NO point have double the starting-chips at some time during levels 1-2-3?


Also knowing how often we get stacked trying to double up early with less that premium hands would be nice, but is much harder to get an accurate number for.

I'll try to get the good people over at the pokertracker Postgres forum to help with the query.

[/ QUOTE ]

rvg did alot of stuff with this a couple years ago

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0332&page=

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
In moshman's book he explains why doubling up early and taking risks doesn't work.

The reason is that doubling up early does not double your tournement equity.

He gave an example of two other guys in your sng being all in, one eliminated, and one doubling up. And he stated that in the long run BOTH lose from the situation, compared to the player that avoided the all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read the book, and the example is about taking a coinflip early.

Please re-read what I wrote in my post. Doubling up early does not double your $EV, but it does INCREASE your $EV. Finding the right balance between risk/reward is the key.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

I think this whole issue is blown up too much. In the same way that a LAG can beat the same NL cash game a TAG can, players who play differently in the opening stages can also be +EV in SnG's. We may disagree on certain plays, but both types can be winners. One style deep stacked is not necessarily 'better' than another. In late stages, ICM dominates, but early stages are open for debate.

i'm a bit looser than most on the forum early in the SnG. I remember one post where in the first level, a guy limped A7s in late position with three limpers before him, and had a question about his postflop play. Several people told him to fold pf! Huh?! I was astonished, really, i feel limping Axs behind multiple limpers early is money. I was really perplexed at what i saw as nittinessw. But this doesn't mean players who are tighter than me are wrong, they just play differently.

It's an interesting debate to have, and hopefully people will have an open mind. I've tightened up a bunch due to advice from this forum, but i'm still looser than most.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

Scotty,
I think higher buyins would have people restealing lighter, lower buyins tend to have more passive cally players.

Lacky,
Nice post.

DannyOcean,
That is a good point, but people don't go into MSNL threads and say a LAG is making a terrible spew preflop.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

Having played cash for a while now, I've really lost that fear of getting called. I think that is something a lot of tournament players and especially sng players have.

Get called is not the end of the word, especially if you play well post flop and especially if you have position.

Like pudge said, people will peel light from the blinds and this is a good thing. You just have to learn to recognize which players are peeling light, and figure out the good spots to put moves on these players. A lot of this comes from experience. Raptor comes in here occasionally and suggests that every snger take a break from sngs and play some 6max cash. I suspect this is the reason.

You will eventually lose that fear of getting called (again, especially by the blinds when you will have position), and you post flop game will improve to the point that you could probably pwn most regulars at most levels of sngs.

But, this is all very dependent on buy-in unfortunately. At the lowest buy-ins there is so much value in not only staying out of the way to let others clash with their mediocre hands, but also to preserve you chip stack because all you need is one good hand against these droolers and you double. You also have a lot less FE, so FPSY (for lack of a better phrase), will often just be spew. However, as you move up in stakes this can change.

A good place to look at this a bit is in the weekly trout games. Usually when I play these now a days, I just lag it up at first. Opening a lot of pots and 3-betting a lot. I do this because I know these guys will fold. Not because they are bad, or I'm better than them, but because I'm making moves with position. So, they rightfully should be folding a lot, even if they think I'm full of it.

As you move up in stakes, you will find more the of the thinking players you find in the STTF trout games. So, you can start adding a little more deceptiveness to your preflop hand requirements. This really shouldn't come at the expensive of fold equity later when the blinds get big.

As you move up people obviously understand the push/fold game better. However, a reasonable opponent is going to realize that just because you were looser than average in the early stages, doesn't mean you are pushing too loose with the blinds higher. You could still be playing optimally at the end game as well.

So, all that written, and I'd still suggest a very ABC type approach for most players in STTF. Until you take raptor's advice and try some cash for a bit, you probably won't have the post flop skills to really make mixing it up more early that worth while or even profitable.

edit: ugh, just read lacky's post in which he uses experience to say the opposite of what i did. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

btw way too lazy to read the entire first post or any of the responses, but I did read the first few sentences and anyone who says that open raising QJs or A5s from the CO, especially the QJs part, is completely out of their minds and doesn't understand poker very well.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
edit: ugh, just read lacky's post in which he uses experience to say the opposite of what i did.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never played below 33's though, 33-55 could very well be a grey in-between area. also, my experience is from a structure and game conditions that no longer exist

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw way too lazy to read the entire first post or any of the responses, but I did read the first few sentences and anyone who says that open raising QJs or A5s from the CO, especially the QJs part, is completely out of their minds and doesn't understand poker very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

curtains I think you're missing an important qualifier in there. Open-raising those hands from the CO - good or bad?

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw way too lazy to read the entire first post or any of the responses, but I did read the first few sentences and anyone who says that open raising QJs or A5s from the CO, especially the QJs part, is completely out of their minds and doesn't understand poker very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

curtains I think you're missing an important qualifier in there. Open-raising those hands from the CO - good or bad?

[/ QUOTE ]


OH Im a dummy. Good of course. I mean probably won't kill you completely if you fold, but it's really sort of crappy to fold IMO.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

grunch:
I get what pudge is saying. Still disagree about the merits of raising A5s in most situations, as it seems to benefit from having a lot of callers rather than a few, though I wouldn't know as I've pretty much never raised that hand at t20 or t30 since I've gotten past the point where I sucked at STTs. Recently switching to cash for about 1/3 of my poker time has really gotten me to loosen up in LP in STTs, however, and the QJ hand I think is mostly auto raise for me now. I dunno if it is just me, but I see a world of difference between the two hands. Also, they were played at vastly different stakes. However, I'm afraid that I'm becoming something of a volume whore, and that I pass up small edges due to laziness, etc, that I won't be able to pass up as I move up further. Obv. any hand in a discussion should be treated as if you were playing only one table and we should all be thinking of an optimal line, as opposed to fold, its too marginal, etc... QJs sure seems to benefit from position a whole lot more than A5s with a pfr, as you can continuation bet that A when it hits the flop with QJs and what-- get KK that didn't reraise preflop to fold when an A flops? You're pretty much building up a pot with a crap hand with A5s, as yes you have position, but there isn't really a single flop you'd really like to hit and get called on, so you might as well open a suited connector where you could actually make top pair that could stand a flop call. You don't want to have to bluff out better aces when you flop one. If this doesn't make sense, I'm moderately hammered.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

I agree that there is a big difference between QJs and A5s. I'd still probably raise both from the CO. But, in a cash game A5s gets a lot of value from allowing hands like 76s of the same suit come along for cheap.

I still open raise Axs hands, but I don't isolate with them or 3-bet in position with them.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that there is a big difference between QJs and A5s. I'd still probably raise both from the CO. But, in a cash game A5s gets a lot of value from allowing hands like 76s of the same suit come along for cheap.

I still open raise Axs hands, but I don't isolate with them or 3-bet in position with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big difference between 3 betting and open raising!!!

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

Good post pudge. In any type of poker you will find that those who take a dogmatic approach to what they believe won't improve.

Not to get to far away from the SNG part of this but Devin,

[ QUOTE ]

I still open raise Axs hands, but I don't isolate with them or 3-bet in position with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean you call with these hands a lot?

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

CheeseMoney,
I agree with a lot of what you said except the last point.
[ QUOTE ]
QJs sure seems to benefit from position a whole lot more than A5s with a pfr, as you can continuation bet that A when it hits the flop with QJs and what-- get KK that didn't reraise preflop to fold when an A flops? You're pretty much building up a pot with a crap hand with A5s, as yes you have position, but there isn't really a single flop you'd really like to hit and get called on, so you might as well open a suited connector where you could actually make top pair that could stand a flop call. You don't want to have to bluff out better aces when you flop one.

[/ QUOTE ]
Than don't bet with A5s check when you flop a pair. TP is almost always better than midpair unless people have really unbalanced range.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good post pudge. In any type of poker you will find that those who take a dogmatic approach to what they believe won't improve.

Not to get to far away from the SNG part of this but Devin,

[ QUOTE ]

I still open raise Axs hands, but I don't isolate with them or 3-bet in position with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean you call with these hands a lot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

How does that work Devin ?


In cash the strength of Axs is that if you flop an FD, then you have around 47% equity if the A gutshot is clean, so in a raised pot you can just get in it on the flop for stacks .. the profit comes from the FE you might have (and the SCs that go 'I have an FD and two overs, I'm all in' vs you)

With flipping not being adviced in sngs, is it worth it ? (chips decreasing in value)

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does that work Devin ?


In cash the strength of Axs is that if you flop an FD, then you have around 47% equity if the A gutshot is clean, so in a raised pot you can just get in it on the flop for stacks .. the profit comes from the FE you might have (and the SCs that go 'I have an FD and two overs, I'm all in' vs you)

With flipping not being adviced in sngs, is it worth it ? (chips decreasing in value)

[/ QUOTE ]

I was talking in general about the value of Axs compared to playing lower SCs. You get value from allowing hands like 76s come along. But, that's more in a cash game context.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

OK ... then we speak the same language [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

Excellent Post as per usual pudge.

As Lacky pointed out Its not FPS if you can seperate the donks from the nits. IMO it can be appplied at any buyin once you have seperated the donks from the nits.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

fwiw didn't read everything but for ppl saying A5s is an auto raise from the CO, it's a fold for me in some 6max cash games. when i'm folding it in a game i could reload in then that's something to think about when debating on if i should play it in a tourney where i can't rebuy.

the hand is just way too marginal to be played and for most people it's actually a loser in that position, as is most Axs hands. it might be beneficial to play it to balance out certain things in your game even with it being a marginal loser but most people don't have to worry about that. btw this is for early play w/out antes.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

A few random thoughts,
Pudge very good post, I basically agree with the gist. Without getting into specifics I feel like a lot of ppl basically miss massively +ev spots in sngs by playing far too nitty/straightforward. Part of this is because its full ring but especially in late position you can open a pretty wide range of hands in early levels of sngs. Particularly because most ppl are terrible postflop. One big leak I think a lot of sng regs have is they play too ABC and it becomes incredibly easy to read their hands. When some guys who open up their game more end up having a higher roi because they pick up more chips and get more value out of their strong hands.

Dr Jeckyl,
[ QUOTE ]
One problem that I am learning to overcome is playing weaker starting hands KQ, QJ, JT, etc and hitting top pair, but not top kicker. You need to remember that when you play these hands you will almost never have the best hand. So when you get resistance you need to realize you're in trouble and you should probably get away from the hand

[/ QUOTE ]
I get what your saying but your pretty wrong. A lot of times when I get top pair with these hands you can get 2 streets of value sometimes even 3.

Devin/Usher,
Axs is the nuts I like never fold pf with it. Talk to unarmed.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

Alan,
Is that metagame post so people won't think you are a crazy asian eventhough you clearly are?

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

Eagles makes a good point that you can put nits on like 5 hands in levels 1 and 2 alot of the time ... Having a wider pf range is fine b/c half the time you are cbetting whiffed AK or QQ/JJ on K/Q high boards and taking it down vs the check/folding donks anyways. I think good postflop play + a large pt database are two huge assets if you are gong to start experimenting though

Prop bets on ROI for 'laggy' sng stats over 500-1k sngs anyone?

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

[ QUOTE ]
One big leak I think a lot of sng regs have is they play too ABC and it becomes incredibly easy to read their hands

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yes, when i talk about stealing small pots from nits, this is exactly it. your typical sng grinder raises mid position in level one. you call on the button (with a loose image, youve played them enough they know you call wide). flop comes 456 or 889, etc, pot is already yours, cause that flop is in no way in their range, and it's in yours. they check fold flop, or they weak cont bet, you call, they c/f turn. works every time.

Re: The Fine Line Between FPS and Being a Robot
 

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One big leak I think a lot of sng regs have is they play too ABC and it becomes incredibly easy to read their hands

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yes, when i talk about stealing small pots from nits, this is exactly it. your typical sng grinder raises mid position in level one. you call on the button (with a loose image, youve played them enough they know you call wide). flop comes 456 or 889, etc, pot is already yours, cause that flop is in no way in their range, and it's in yours. they check fold flop, or they weak cont bet, you call, they c/f turn. works every time.

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AA-JJ doesn't need a flop of high cards to continue. If they really are that nitty they will have hit that flop a decent % of the time.