10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

We have both played very solidly over the last 30 minutes or so - he may or may not know who I am but he probably does because of cardrunners. My preflop play is bad, I know... I'm more interested in the flop.

Don't have HH because I was so tilted I insta-quit the game earlier.

Folded to Stinger (covers) on the btn who raises to 80 and I call in the SB (2700) with 1010. BB folds so heads up to a flop of 2 5 7, two clubs.

AS PLAYED who likes a lead? Check call? Check raise?

I elected to go for the C/R. Stinger bets 120, I make it 380 and relatively quickly he bumps it to 1050 or something...

Before I give my thoughts or my action, what do you guys think? Please, I understand preflop was bad I was more experimenting than anything else...

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

Why is preflop bad?

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

Preflop is standard for me. I don't mind the c/r that much if you are 100bbs (obv intending to get it in), as played I guess you gotta vomit and fold

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

Why does it even have to be vomit and fold how about just fold

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

i would lead the flop. as played u should generally fold.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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i would lead the flop. as played u should generally fold.

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lead intending to fold to raise? just call if he raises? seems awkard, so just wondering if u wouldn't mind elaborating

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

c/c flop is best with 135 bb eff i think, with 100bb you might wanna c/r and get it in.
Preflop is fine too

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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i would lead the flop. as played u should generally fold.

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I mean it seems clear to me that given this board texture Revlis almost never has a big hand, which would lead me to believe that Stinger's bluffing/semi-bluffing frequency should be pretty high here. Thus, I would stack off if I played the hand in this manner.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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i would lead the flop. as played u should generally fold.

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if you lead this flop what are you doing if raised on this flop? reraising? or calling/evaluating? it seems like this line gets you into the same problems that c/ring does.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

if cc ootbs with TT isnt standard for you, youre undervaluing your hand here.

Also, if you are going to c/r here, has he seen you do it before? details on that...

I think leading seems really fishy, and from watching stingers vids, I really think hes gonna [censored] with you.

Whats wrong with just check calling the flop? I guess I could see it being somewhat bad for us because there are a lot of cards in his range that could fall and force us to fold...

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

if you get ther this way, i feel like you have to stick it in, but no, i'm not happy about it

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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i would lead the flop. as played u should generally fold.

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Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

Preflop is fine. In fact I really don't like reraising as a standard here. If you're gonna cr the flop you should make it a bigger raise, more like 450-500 and be willing to stack off. Since you feel like the dynamic between you and stinger at this point is not such that you can stack off following the cr, you should probably lead out.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

I guess I am not understanding why leading is best here? From all of the videos I have seen, youre begging to get [censored] with by leading here... I dont know if he ever really folds to a lead.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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I guess I am not understanding why leading is best here? From all of the videos I have seen, youre begging to get [censored] with by leading here... I dont know if he ever really folds to a lead.

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the idea is basically this:

If we lead and he raises, we are waay ahead of his range still. (bc he can/should raise donkbets with a wide range.)

vs.

If we c/r and he 3bets, he is showing much more strength than in the previous example. That said, i would still put it in with TT here, tho i wouldnt be ecstatic about it.

By leading, we let him raise air/draws/worse overpair bc you can never have TT here. Also, it loosens your leading range to include more "made" hands, thus making it harder to put you on a range in the future.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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I guess I am not understanding why leading is best here? From all of the videos I have seen, youre begging to get [censored] with by leading here... I dont know if he ever really folds to a lead.

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we don't want him to fold.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

Ok, just making sure. it seemed like we wanted to lead and shut down to any aggression, or really not want to stick it in there.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I guess I am not understanding why leading is best here? From all of the videos I have seen, youre begging to get [censored] with by leading here... I dont know if he ever really folds to a lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

the idea is basically this:

If we lead and he raises, we are waay ahead of his range still. (bc he can/should raise donkbets with a wide range.)

vs.

If we c/r and he 3bets, he is showing much more strength than in the previous example. That said, i would still put it in with TT here, tho i wouldnt be ecstatic about it.

By leading, we let him raise air/draws/worse overpair bc you can never have TT here. Also, it loosens your leading range to include more "made" hands, thus making it harder to put you on a range in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

why can he "never" have TT here?

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I am not understanding why leading is best here? From all of the videos I have seen, youre begging to get [censored] with by leading here... I dont know if he ever really folds to a lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

the idea is basically this:

If we lead and he raises, we are waay ahead of his range still. (bc he can/should raise donkbets with a wide range.)

vs.

If we c/r and he 3bets, he is showing much more strength than in the previous example. That said, i would still put it in with TT here, tho i wouldnt be ecstatic about it.

By leading, we let him raise air/draws/worse overpair bc you can never have TT here. Also, it loosens your leading range to include more "made" hands, thus making it harder to put you on a range in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

So we lead out (my initial plan too), do you then agree on sticking it in/when he raises since he is raising such a wide range here ?? Or do you think a call and seeing the turn is better, because there are a lot of scare cards possible and then you are still likely to c/f the turn if a scare card hits, right ??

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

let me rephrase what i said earlier. i would lead then call his raise, and reeval on the turn. i dont like playing /monkeymoneyinthemiddleontheflopifuhaveoverpair style like most ppl seem to.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

How is 3-betting not standard preflop? I'm generally opening A2o through J3s and whatever on the button.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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How is 3-betting not standard preflop? I'm generally opening A2o through J3s and whatever on the button.

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if you can't play well in reraised pots, stinger will own you. or you will just win the blinds + his button raise when he is feeling charitable and decides not to defend to your 3-bet.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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let me rephrase what i said earlier. i would lead then call his raise, and reeval on the turn. i dont like playing /monkeymoneyinthemiddleontheflopifuhaveoverpair style like most ppl seem to.

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Well I got to agree that I don't like getting it all in on the flop with TT their either when he repopped which he is doing with a pretty wide range 'cause when you get a call you're probably not in great shape but I think it's also not easy to play the turn once a scare card come off, especially OOP and you are forced most of the times forced to check and a good chance any scare card Stinger is going to bet so then you still got to fold most of the time, so was just wondering...

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

im sure stinger outs it in on this flop with 99 or at least 4 bets u. He prolly doesnt think you would cc 10-10 vs him since he is so aggro
thoughts??
cr here = call

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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How is 3-betting not standard preflop? I'm generally opening A2o through J3s and whatever on the button.

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if you can't play well in reraised pots, stinger will own you. or you will just win the blinds + his button raise when he is feeling charitable and decides not to defend to your 3-bet.

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Not 3-betting and letting him play a single raised pot in position with ATC seems more like stinger owning you.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

I lead this flop, but if you check I'd much prefer a call and fire a good barrel on the turn.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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How is 3-betting not standard preflop? I'm generally opening A2o through J3s and whatever on the button.

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if you can't play well in reraised pots, stinger will own you. or you will just win the blinds + his button raise when he is feeling charitable and decides not to defend to your 3-bet.

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Not 3-betting and letting him play a single raised pot in position with ATC seems more like stinger owning you.

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TT vs ATC seems like an OK edge to me even OOP.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

Keep in mind that I don't raise any 2 cards on the button. I have a fairly wide range but certainly nowhere near any 2.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

Whats the plan after leading the flop into a player like this? How do we deal with his raise or call?

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

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Keep in mind that I don't raise any 2 cards on the button. I have a fairly wide range but certainly nowhere near any 2.

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ya i was just responding to him saying that, my point was just that being ahead of your opening range doesnt necessarily dictate a 3-bet.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

what u guys dont seem to realize is that check-calling flop has way more positive meta-game implications than leading could ever have. unless your gameplan is [censored] sick unorthodox.

also preflop aint bad at all.

Re: 10-20 I\'m terrible V Stinger
 

in general i'm not a big fan of getting it in this way, however given stinger's likely estimation of your range (based on what he prolly feels is your preception of his range) i think this is a good spot for him to be moving pretty light, and so i'd just shove.

fwiw i'd generally 3 bet preflop, but if i got to the flop this way i'd either lead or c/c.