Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

Villain is 35/25 LAGTAG after 71 hands

I lost my old db so I have been playing a lot more with him. Dont have any notes which means he hasnt done anything I consider dumb or extraordinary when against me.

In other words, he seems to be pretty good postflop


Party Poker Mid Stakes Hold'em (6 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.83 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero ???


I dont think he has a Q or J very often. But to be honest I dont know. Most will pop those on the flop but he might realize I know that and get trixxy.


Afterwards I also realized that betting might get him to fold a fd

Also, if he has like A5 I have 55% eq with my 4 out freeroller.

I am also sure if he got there with Kx he is calling down.


Anyhoo. I thought this was an interesting spot

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

Its way less interesting if you fold preflop, but that's what I'd do [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

with your assumptions this looks like a clear bet to me. but i might be too sleepy to be thinking straight.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

If I agree to never 3-bet ATo there again can I get your feedback on turnplay?







































nit [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

I think 3 betting pf is fine, his range seems to be wide enough.

As for turn play, this looks like a great spot to check behind. There is a good chance that we are ahead and I would hate getting blown off the best hand. He seems likely to bet alot of river cards if we check through and we will be able to pick up a bet there. If he is on a fd there is a good chance that he would have c/r the flop or he might be waiting for the turn. I really like a check behind here.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think 3 betting pf is fine, his range seems to be wide enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good LAGTAGs (which we are assuming villain is) are expanding their range a lot more in late position than in early position.

Oinkers:

pros to betting: he could call down with a worse hand or chop that we are freerolling against, it discourages him from peeling lightly against us from a metagame POV, he could CR bluff and we are never folding.

cons to betting: he could fold a hand that would pay off on the river (king high), he could fold a hand that would bluff the river (missed draw or small pair), he could value town us with a slowplayed hand.

I feel that in general, against such LAGTAGs, I like to be able to check the turn and not get totally exploited, because my hand just isn't that good that often. Here we have a pretty strong chance of holding up if our hand is best (worst case is he has 12 outs with a king high flush draw I think, but that's clearly not common). I like situations where I can check with the strongest of my weak hands (if that makes any sense) because it protects me from having nasty decisions when I am checking with my weakest of my weak hands.

I would check here.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think 3 betting pf is fine, his range seems to be wide enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good LAGTAGs (which we are assuming villain is) are expanding their range a lot more in late position than in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but this guy doesn't need to be a total spaz for 3 betting ATo to be correct. I think if villian were an unknown, 3 betting with AJo would be good. Since we know he is at least a little looser than the average bear, I think it's probably alright to open up with ATo, but that's as low as i'd limbo against all but the craziest UTG raiser, A9o is a quick muck.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

Assuming he does the normal lagtag thing and c/r's the flop with a flushdraw or oesd, the only hands you want him to fold is another A. And that's not gonna happen.

So the question remains: if he has a PP, will he bluff the river more often than catch a 2-outer? The answer is yes imo, so I'd check. If he never tries to bluff you like some nitty tags then I would bet.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think 3 betting pf is fine, his range seems to be wide enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good LAGTAGs (which we are assuming villain is) are expanding their range a lot more in late position than in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but this guy doesn't need to be a total spaz for 3 betting ATo to be correct. I think if villian were an unknown, 3 betting with AJo would be good. Since we know he is at least a little looser than the average bear, I think it's probably alright to open up with ATo, but that's as low as i'd limbo against all but the craziest UTG raiser, A9o is a quick muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

as a default for typical 10/20 game, 3-betting here is fine imo. How much of an edge do you people require?!

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

IMO the 3-bet is good in this spot preflop. For the turn I like a check. A c/r on the turn can get pretty nasty and we are not folding against this guy. But since he has played with you before, if we did bet the turn and he did put in the raise knowing your not folding you may need to keep this in mind also.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

I think folding PF is just fine, though it depends on how SD bound villain is, the more foldy he gets post flop, obviously the better the 3bet becomes. But against a generic good playing lagtag (if such a thing exists) any edge you squeeze out by 3-betting is VERY marginal (even if you have an EQ edge, it's thin, an you are OOP in a very strong RIO situation). Maybe it's a function of running bad, but I think that cutting marginal OOP 3-bets like this out have helped me restore both my results and my sanity.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding PF is just fine, though it depends on how SD bound villain is, the more foldy he gets post flop, obviously the better the 3bet becomes. But against a generic good playing lagtag (if such a thing exists) any edge you squeeze out by 3-betting is VERY marginal (even if you have an EQ edge, it's thin, an you are OOP in a very strong RIO situation). Maybe it's a function of running bad, but I think that cutting marginal OOP 3-bets like this out have helped me restore both my results and my sanity.

[/ QUOTE ]

This 3 bet is not OOP, we're on the button.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

To be fair mr. poohbear, we are in position. Still I think ATo is just super marginal. AJo I 3 bet of course but I don't really love it.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

Oh FFS, why can I not read a hand history? Yeah ATo, bombs away. I think I check to induce river bluff. If you're ahead, he's drawing way thin, so the free card hurts not so much, and I HATE to get C/R on this turn, because can you really fold a decent sized pot to a thinking LAGTAG?

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

FWIW I dont 3-bet AJo against a 25/18 UTG

Btw when I quote stats they are filtered for 5-6 handed. I prolly should have said that.

I am guessing 44, K7s, A7o, Q9s, 98s is in his UTG range.

I'd be tempted to 3-bet A9o here.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

Preflop, I never know what I'm going to do in this spot until I do it, so whatever.

I think this is a pretty interesting spot tho. I lean towards checking because I don't see enough value in a bet. Oink thinks he will call down with Kx. against a lot of players you will get 1 or zero big bets out of with that hand, but Oink would know more than me.

If I had the nut flush draw, I'd lean towards betting cuz my freeroll equity vs another Ax is better. Just doesnt seem like you will get called by worse enough to make it worth it with only a gutshot freeroll.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

ill 3bet anybody and check this turn yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

Ok thx guys

I posted it because when I played the hand it seemed like an easy turn check

River was a J and he showed up up K7cc for the loose open and loose flop peel. I lost half the pot and felt kinda dumb.

I then realized pretty much what trypta said: Not much value in a bet, however his range is so skewed towards Kx, low pp, Ax and fd's that maybe I should bet to protect my hand from chopping and to get that little value.


Dunno. I am still not convinced. Tho I am glad so many of you said check as that what I did.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

easie 3-bet preflop.

a normal LagTag with 35/25 (like me) raises UTG with more than top 20% (like 23%)
your equity:
vs 20% = 51.5%
vs 23% = 53.4%
vs 18.6% = 50%

+ dead blind money
+ in position

in you hand I just check behind on turn and call any river (or bet if checked to)
betting dont knock out an hand you that has you beaten.
however from my point of view betting charges drawing hands less than you would gain by bluff bets on the river by busted draws and low pocket pairs.

Re: Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG
 

I am a 35/25 as well for 5-6 handed. My UTG range is about 20%

Against me:


<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

386,980,704 games 0.047 secs 8,233,632,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.425% 46.04% 03.38% 178172648 13093637.00 { 44+, A5s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, A8o+, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 1: 50.575% 47.19% 03.38% 182620782 13093637.00 { AcTd }
</pre><hr />


@ Timo

You raise 23% UTG?

I found out I was 30/20 6-handed and 40/30 5-handed. Maybe I can add a bit more UTG. Dunno, but my default range is the one I used in the stove. Do you mind sharing yours?