Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

villain is 29/0/0.33 over 40 hands

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $13.75
MP: $10
CO: $6.11
BTN: $15.80
Hero (SB): $5.18
BB: $3.44

Pre-Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.03, BB checks

Flop: ($0.20) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $0.15</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $0.15, MP calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.65) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $0.55</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $0.55

River: ($1.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $1.20</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $4.20</font>, Hero rolls his eyes

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

I call here.. I think there is more chance that villian is overvaluating his 2 pair then that he has a runner runner flush or straight..

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

Assuming that raise isn't all-in then I shove.

2 pair is much more likely than a straight or a flush.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that raise isn't all-in then I shove.

2 pair is much more likely than a straight or a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was able to go back into PT and find stats on villain.

29/0/0.33 over 40 hands

Does this change our decision?

And the raise was not all in.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

How is this turn gross?

On the river it is obvious he has AhJh. This guy has a talent for rivering royals.

Anyway I pot the flop, since we are 4 handed. If somebody calls your current bet, then they will call a pot bet. Turn may give people some draws. Pot it again. On the river I call his raise, because both draws that are completed are backdoor draws. AF is meaningless given sample size.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

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How is this turn gross?

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????


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On the river it is obvious he has AhJh. This guy has a talent for rivering royals.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

Call and expect to see 2 pair most of the time. If this is some kind of backdoor straight or flush, whatever.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is this turn gross?

[/ QUOTE ]
????


[ QUOTE ]
On the river it is obvious he has AhJh. This guy has a talent for rivering royals.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems irony is hard to communicate across the internet. But anyway this turn isn't gross. Do you call any two tone flop gross? On the river the board gets nasty. But not on the turn.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

Hi, stop playing every hand you get coolered.

Yours sincerely,

Twoplustwo.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, stop posting every hand you get coolered.

Yours sincerely,

Twoplustwo.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. np [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems irony is hard to communicate across the internet. But anyway this turn isn't gross. Do you call any two tone flop gross? On the river the board gets nasty. But not on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

"gross turn and river" is simply a form of speach for saying something hit by way of the river (and it takes the turn to get there), but this really isn't applicable to the specific content of the post.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, stop playing every hand you get coolered.

Yours sincerely,

Twoplustwo.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOLOLOL

shove river

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi, stop posting every hand you get coolered.

Yours sincerely,

Twoplustwo.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. np [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

rofl, ta...didn't even notice [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, stop playing every hand you get coolered.

Yours sincerely,

Twoplustwo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't even revealed the final outcome of the hand, I am just trying to make decisions in certain spots more second nature by means that I won't have to post questions like this in the future. I'm obviously not going to post when i get quads and ask if I should have called the all in bet on the river.

I'm not being results oriented here, just trying to get feedback.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems irony is hard to communicate across the internet. But anyway this turn isn't gross. Do you call any two tone flop gross? On the river the board gets nasty. But not on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think he meant gross (turn+river), not a gross turn, and then a gross river.

I still get it all-in on the river.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that raise isn't all-in then I shove.

2 pair is much more likely than a straight or a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was able to go back into PT and find stats on villain.

29/0/0.33 over 40 hands

Does this change our decision?

And the raise was not all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It does make me just a slight tad less surprised if I lose....but that's it.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

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And the raise was not all in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't mean to be a nit, but after he raises, you have about $.30 left, so it is basically the same as if it were all in. It's not like you can now shove and have any FE.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

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[ QUOTE ]
And the raise was not all in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't mean to be a nit, but after he raises, you have about $.30 left, so it is basically the same as if it were all in. It's not like you can now shove and have any FE.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that raise isn't all-in then I shove.

2 pair is much more likely than a straight or a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the raise was not all in.

[/ QUOTE ]



I didn't feel like looking to see if there was like 30 cents left so I just said if that wasn't all-in then I shove. He answered that, that wasn't all-in. I don't think anybody was saying that it mattered.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, stop playing every hand you get coolered.

Yours sincerely,

Twoplustwo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, stop being such a dick

Yours sincecerly,

ama

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

wow what's with all the hate. this is a tough spot and i am inclined to fold.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

ama &gt; Twoplustwo obv, I'd listen [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

No way i fold here. If he plays 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or KK like this, nh sir.

I wouldn't be suprised to see AK, KQ or an awfully played AA (lol i have teh nutz!) here.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

The thing about folding this river is that for us to be behind he has to have called the flop with nothing, and hit runner runner. Its a bizarre hand and I think its close, but dont forget that we are in a limped pot also. I dont see a problem with folding here.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

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The thing about folding this river is that for us to be behind he has to have called the flop with nothing

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It wouldn't shock me if he called the flop with like Ah3h, although obviously since Greg has 5h he can't have any other similar hand. I think it's not uncommon at this level for some players to consider calling based on the absolute size of the bet rather than pot odds. They will call 15c on the flop with bottom pair or a backdoor flush draw because "it's not too much and I could spike an ace or a draw on the turn, or he might just be bluffing and will give up".

Without a read other than "villain is passive" I don't think this is an easy decision either way. In this situation, a big factor for me would be whether I thought he had any particular read on me. If he's seen me take this kind of line with something like TPGK (although I would only take this line with TPGK based on a read), or if I've been caught bluffing the river recently or have otherwise been very aggro and I think he's getting annoyed, then it leans towards a call since he might view 2 pair as the nuts. It would have to be a strong read though and recent, not something that happened 50 hands ago. With no read, a fold is probably better.

It's a cliche that most villains at this level are only playing their cards, but my experience has been that a lot them do notice and react to aggressive play, although they usually do so in a pretty exploitable way, so it's helpful to pay attention to how people react to your image.

One other thing: one of the concepts at the end of NLHE:TAP is the idea that a big river bet or raise is usually a more immediate and reliable source of information than other things you know, so without a read to indicate otherwise, that raise really does scream that he has a flush, even though he had to play rather wackily to get to the river. Normally it's wrong to put a villain on a hand rather than a wider range, but in this case the strength of information coming from that river raise is strong enough you probably can define a very narrow range for it most of the time, even though you would never play the flop/turn this way with that range yourself.

This is rather long and rambly. Sorry about that.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

I play it the same but I c/c the river

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play it the same but I c/c the river

[/ QUOTE ]
You are leaving tons of value on the table if you check call this river. Two pair or a weird set of 3's are far more likely than a straight or a flush. Check the board out. The only possible flush that even makes sense is either Ah2h or Ah4h. That's two hands. Now compare that with the number of times this guy shows up w/ KT, KQ, K3, or 33 and tell me that you prefer checking this river over betting.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

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The only possible flush that even makes sense is either Ah2h or Ah4h. That's two hands. Now compare that with the number of times this guy shows up w/ KT, KQ, K3, or 33 and tell me that you prefer checking this river over betting.

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2c/5c NL. Nothing makes sense, but I still managed to go on a 4 BI upswing playing only 2 tables through about 300 hands.

I can live with situations like this every once and awhile, but imo people dont overvalue 2 pair with a raise that large. If villain had made it $3-3.60 I snap call ($4.20 may seem like a small difference, but psychologically it makes a difference imo-but the counter argument here could be to call the $4.20 b/c in fact, nothing makes sense) I have to think to myself..why so much?

Only 15 seconds to make a decision.

FWIW I folded. Bring on the flames.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

Check call river instead and honestly I'd fold here as played

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

I think the point about betting vs. checking still stands, but is a separate question.

Betting for value on the river is just fine and is probably better than checking given that there is no reason to expect a check to induce a bet with weaker hands from this villain, but he will probably call, and very rarely raise worse. I also think it's fine that you folded to his raise. Tough spot.

Edit: Gelford, could you explain your thoughts a bit more on why you think check/call is better than bet/fold here?

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

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I play it the same but I c/c the river

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I actually dont agree with c/c the river either. Leaves a lot of value to one pair and weak 2 paired hands, as these hands will usually check behind on the river...whereas they would call a 3/4-full size pot bet here.

After the many replies, I'm confident a b/f-b/c is appropriate.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

i definately bet the river.

Re: Warning micro micro: Gross turn and river
 

Actually I think a fold at 02/05 NL against a 29/0/0.33 player is a good fold. There are alot of players at this level who are loose passive and call to the river and it is impossible to read what they have , but more often than not when they bet on the river - they have what they are representing and his stats certainly confirm this. I fold - wait for another hand and value bet the crap out of him.