10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

A hand I played yesterday in a very good 10/20 E game with one player donking away money at a record speed (raising preflop without looking at his cards, capping preflop without looking at his cards, raising the turn with gutshots and more donktastic plays).

The hand:

Donk doesn't look at his cards and raises and is cold called by a very loose player (somewhat aggressive). The next player (A solid TAG 3-bets, his range is wide here since he know what I know: the other two player play any 2). I'm next to act with T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and <font color="red">cap</font>. I get one cold caller behind me, and the other players that are already in the hand call the cap.

We see the flop 5-way (10 BB): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

The maniac bets (He still doesn't know his hand I think), loose player calls, tag calls, <font color="red">I raise</font>, player behind me folds, maniac 3-bets, loose player calls, tag folds, <font color="red">I cap</font>, maniac calls, loose player calls.

Turn (3-handed, approx. 16BB): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Maniac bets again, this means he has something (one pair, gutshot, or something better...). Loose player calls, <font color="red">I raise</font>, Maniac 3-bets and is all-in. Loose player calls and <font color="red">I call</font>.

River comes: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Loose player checks, <font color="red">I check</font>.

What do you think of my play in this hand?

I think preflop cap is standard, and raise/capping the flop for value and protection (the other TAG will have almost always have overcards in this spot) is the best play.

On the turn: it is clear that the maniac wants his last money in the pot, so I help him with raising so he can 3-bet all-in. This means that the loose player needs to call two extra big bets so he will pay the max when drawing. Also since i'm still reasonable sure that I have the maniac beat it looks like a clear value raise on the turn since I will be putting in just 33% of the money. Or do you think I'm thowing in to much money in the pot with my hand here?

Now to the last two decisions: cap the turn yes or no? The loose player could still be drawing to a flush/straight or he could pay me of with a hand like 9x. If he has me beat it's probably with some weak two pair hand, he would show aggression with a set or stronger hand for sure and probably also with a good two pair hand.

River: check or bet? He will probably call with a lot of weak hands since the pot is HUGE, but there is a decent probability my hand isn't best anymore or that he can't call a bet (flushdraw without a pair, ace high). Bet or check?

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

given the reads and action i would cap the turn for value from the looseplayer who is often drawing or behind to us. given that he can be aggressive i doubt he has a hand that is ahead of us very often. on the river, i would bet because we get paid off by a nine or some worse hand often enough because the pot is so big. it would suck to see JJ or 99 or 44 here but that isn't the point of the bet.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

Preflop: With all that dead money in the pot I think a cap is good and it should get the TAG thinking you have a big hand whereas the fish will just pay off.
Flop: Barring a rainbow, this is about as good as it gets with TT. I want to get as many bets in as possible because your edge looks good against these weak players and you can get TAG to fold overs.
Turn: Might as well get maniac all in. I don't know if there is much reason to cap once he gets all in; however, you are probably ahead and are just charging loosey more to draw so a cap is OK.
River: Not a great card but better than a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. A lot of ugly draws from maniac have outdrawn you here but he could certainly have something much more ragged than that. Loose player probably has not called down with just 1 pair, he either is way dead with a flush draw or has some ragged 2 pair that beats you. He hasn't shown any aggression yet but I hate to get c/red in this spot when behind and folded often when he missed his draw, so I check.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

Why not call the flop and wait for a raise on the turn if a blank hits? I think by raising the flop with all these callers we are inviting them to draw out on us later in the hand. Everything else I like.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

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Why not call the flop and wait for a raise on the turn if a blank hits? I think by raising the flop with all these callers we are inviting them to draw out on us later in the hand. Everything else I like.

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I think the raise on the flop is a no brainer, and as you can see: the raise resulted in the folding of the player behind me (After the hand he told the table he would have hit the runner runner flush if he would have stayed in the pot) and I got also rid of the TAG (with two overs). The maniac is never folding and the loose player is also never folding before the river.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

10/20 live? You're playing at the HC?

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

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10/20 live? You're playing at the HC?

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Of course [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (the rake is brutal with 5% up the 15 E (that's almost 20$!), but the game is without a doubt beatable as you can see from this hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

Sjees, and to think they're not allowed to make a profit. Oh, yes, from what I heard a party $1/2 table is more difficult than the usual 10/20 games there. Not sure how much of that is actually true. How are you doing at 5/10 online?

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

Turn is definately a cap. I would bet the river too.

Um, flop I think is just a call. There are a ton of cards that will make you want to just fold on the turn, so I would wait for a safe one and raise it then.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

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Turn is definately a cap. I would bet the river too.

Um, flop I think is just a call. There are a ton of cards that will make you want to just fold on the turn, so I would wait for a safe one and raise it then.

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TKO,
I would advocate a flop raise here to knock out TAG, who will play his hand properly if you let him stay in. Don't you think it would be important to knock him out here with weak overs that he might call for cheaply? However in most cases I would wait for turn as well when edge is either much bigger or gone.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

Here's the thing. If you just call, he's getting 24:1, so he can profitably call with 2 outs. If you raise, he's getting 12.5:1, so he can only profitably call with ~3.5 outs. All that we know about the player behind us is that he cold-called 4-bets. He's either got us crushed or was trying to hit the flop hard, with the latter being more likely. If he's got two overs to the board, he's correct to call us whether we raise or not (but may fold due to the worry of getting 3-bet and capped, which is a definite possibility). A pair with a backdoor draw may call us anyway because the pot is huge. Basically, what I'm getting that is that raising is good. However, if a safe card comes off on the turn, then raising then is even better, because our equity has shot up significantly.

Consider the hand as played. If the guy behind us has a gutshot, he would be correct to call our flop raise and the cap (in sequence). Once the turn comes and we raise, he is once again correct to call with a gutshot, since he's getting 10:1 on his money. Had we not raised the flop, there would be less money in the pot on the turn, and we would have a larger edge, not only against the one player behind us, but against the rest of the opposition as well.

I guess the other argument to raising the flop is that we can be sure the maniac will 3-bet and face the other players with two cold...

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

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I guess the other argument to raising the flop is that we can be sure the maniac will 3-bet and face the other players with two cold...

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Yeah I was maybe being results oriented, this is what I figured would happen.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

I still think we earn more on the turn, where maniac is once again likely to 3-bet, and now the players caught for two cold will be offered the chance to make a significantly bigger mistake.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

Ah, excellent point, I wasn't thinking a street/mistake ahead like that.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

To anyone advocating a flop raise, does your answer change if you are on the button/last to act?

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

I reraise on the turn, and I bet the river. I expect that I will get value from the loose player, who probably just pays me off, because he wants my kid to go to college.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

cap turn and value bet river? at reast raise the river. pls!

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

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Um, flop I think is just a call. There are a ton of cards that will make you want to just fold on the turn, so I would wait for a safe one and raise it then.

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These were my exact thoughts when I read the first post, FWIW.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

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Consider the hand as played. If the guy behind us has a gutshot, he would be correct to call our flop raise and the cap (in sequence).

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That's not true. He is going to pay 2 BB on the flop for a pot of 16BB while there is a flushdraw out there so he can't have 4 full outs. He is getting some nice implied odds though, but calling the flop here with a gutshot is borderline at best.

The same is true for the TAG. How can he know he has 6 outs against my hand? I capped preflop and raised the flop, so it should be pretty clear to him I have AKs or an overpair. If he has AJ/AQ he is in big trouble on average against my hand range and he will know that and fold against a flop 3-bet from the maniac a lot. Certainly since he not only needs to beat my hand, but the other hands as well.

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

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To anyone advocating a flop raise, does your answer change if you are on the button/last to act?

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Not really. I know there is a hand in SSH with TT on a draw heavy board in a big pot, probably a bit like this hand. The main difference is that when I raise here the first time the whole table knows that they not only have to call my raise, but also the inevetable 3-bet from the maniac and a cap from me. Raising doesn't protect my hand, but capping certainly does!

Re: 10/20 Live: TT in a big pot with a lot of action
 

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Consider the hand as played. If the guy behind us has a gutshot, he would be correct to call our flop raise and the cap (in sequence).

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That's not true. He is going to pay 2 BB on the flop for a pot of 16BB

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That's why I said in sequence. Obviously he's not correct to call 4 bets, but to call just 2 is correct, and then to call 2 more in even more correct.

As to your other post, this play really is dependent on the maniac 3-betting, and in that sense, I'm starting to like it a lot more.