Common spot i suck at
 

Stars 109. No antes. When you raise a hand like this and get 2 over cards, assuming villain average/unknown/etc. IDk, wtf?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t100/t200
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t5670
Hero: t2825
MP1: t1925
MP2: t3600
MP3: t7683
CO: t4538
Button: t1905
SB: t1625
BB: t3975

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t600</font>, 2 folds, MP3 calls t600 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t900)</font>, 4 folds.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t1500, 2 players)
Hero??

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

check call flop. check fold turn is my default.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

I bet/call 700.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet/call 700.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh, seems spewy.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

I dont like open raising for 1/4th-1/5th your stack here (or nearly ever for that matter).

If I did raise it'd be like 400-525 or simply open allin (although the allin is pretty thin, but can't be horrible if you just want to snatch some smallish +EV and of course people may call with worse hands like 88, 99 etc). But I really don't like the raise to 600 for a lot of reasons. If there were antes of like 10 through 25 I'd open allin for sure.


Also you can't really check call the flop and check fold the turn as someone mentioned, your stack is only slightly larger than the pot on the flop.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

i open here to like 500 almost always. can induce more shoves from worse. on this flop i check and see what develops, and usually just give up if my opponent puts any pressure on me.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet/call 700.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh, seems spewy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What can I says? I am bad the pokers.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

check call flop, check/fold turn if unimproved

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

my general rule -

one overcard = c bet
two or more overcards = don't c bet.

so I would c/fold this flop.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

This type of spot, along with my belief that a jam is getting called with a wider range than a standard raise is getting 3bet, is why I shove pre here.

As played, I'd bet/fold 900. I just think this flop is unlikely to have hit Villain's range. AK is impossible, AQ is highly unlikely unless he sucks, ditto for KQ. Yeah, KK is remotely possible, but playing KK like this against someone who is almost undoubtedly calling a 3bet with 4 people left behind you isn't too smart unless one of the people behind you is superaggro and you're trying to induce a squeeze. In addition to not being in Villain's range, the flop is squarely within your range, so no one is calling/raising your c-bet light here.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

CC what bet on the flop? 1k? Leaving us 1.2k behind and 3.5k in the pot?

If I check this flop, and I don't fold, then I check shove. Or just shove the turn. I think CC...CF is lunacy.

Edit: I probably wouldn't shove pre here. I think the hand has too much value. So probably 500/call. As played, I'm definitely checking and probably shoving. Worse isn't probably calling UI however we play it but may be dumb enough to bet and then will call. Better probably isn't folding however we play it.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

Bet/fold

What would you do if you were deepstacked? Prolly bet/fold.

No need to push PF just because you could get a cooler flop like this. It's more +EV to standard raise PF.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
CC what bet on the flop? 1k? Leaving us 1.2k behind and 3.5k in the pot?

If I check this flop, and I don't fold, then I check shove. Or just shove the turn. I think CC...CF is lunacy.

Edit: I probably wouldn't shove pre here. I think the hand has too much value. So probably 500/call. As played, I'm definitely checking and probably shoving. Worse isn't probably calling UI however we play it but may be dumb enough to bet and then will call. Better probably isn't folding however we play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO TT doesn't have that much value when 5 off the button with 14x BB.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

i think i c/f flop but i think he will check flop a lot with underpairs too so that is good. seems like 14 bb and no ante is slightly too much to open shove.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
AQ is highly unlikely unless he sucks, ditto for KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what hands do we beat unless villain is uber-retarded? I would like to hear Gobbo's thoughts on 'betting for infomation' on this flop (his theory may not ring true in this scenario). If we consider a K a cooler (10 10 vs AK) then we should just shove flop as we may get Q10/Q9 to fold, maybe.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

if QT/Q9 are calling pf, they're not folding on this flop

i typically just push pf because i'm not good

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
if QT/Q9 are calling pf, they're not folding on this flop


[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, maybe...to an overshove possibly. I think check/folding is best but see above...

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

check/shove

It is better then bet/calling because it gets more value from his lesser pairs.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

I thought this was a spot where they always have AA/KK given stacks. Or is that only when we know villain is good?

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

Maybe this is why I suck but:

Fire out a c-bet, fold to raise, if called check-fold turn unless improved.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

Wooo! I think the same as shaun [censored] deeb

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

With these stacks I'd just c/f this flop, or c/shove. If we had a decent stack I would b/f this flop vs most villains.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
check/shove



[/ QUOTE ]

oops maybe I don't, I suck...surely it is split between check/folding and check/raising and shoving all over bet/folding...

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was a spot where they always have AA/KK given stacks. Or is that only when we know villain is good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given our stack, I don't think flatting KK+ is all that clever - we're never folding pre but it's clear from this thread that we might post.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
check/shove

It is better then bet/calling because it gets more value from his lesser pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it, but I think this works better in $320 and $1K than in $109fo.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

So we either shove and hope to prompt worse hands to call or we play it to represent the king. I personally would do my best to rep the king - I think a c/c on the turn and a lead on the turn reps the king the best - no?

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
So we either shove and hope to prompt worse hands to call or we play it to represent the king. I personally would do my best to rep the king - I think a c/c on the turn and a lead on the turn reps the king the best - no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would we try to rep the king? Are we now trying to get aces to fold lolol? Or are we trying to not induce a bluff which we can't call - with that logic we bet/check to induce the shove... No worse hand is calling either - fact.

I would love an explanation detailing why they would check/fold over check/shove over shove as they seem pretty even to me....

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So we either shove and hope to prompt worse hands to call or we play it to represent the king. I personally would do my best to rep the king - I think a c/c on the turn and a lead on the turn reps the king the best - no?

[/ QUOTE ]



Why would we try to rep the king? Are we now trying to get aces to fold lolol? Or are we trying to not induce a bluff which we can't call - with that logic we bet/check to induce the shove... No worse hand is calling either - fact.

I would love an explanation detailing why they would check/fold over check/shove over shove as they seem pretty even to me....

[/ QUOTE ]


You dont think the best way to get Aq, jj, maybe qjs to fold is to call the flop and lead the turn? I think thats the strongest line.

shoving the flop allows villain to play perfectly imo - may be ok as picking up the chips may be worth it.

check shoving looks a bit scared too and i think gets a call from a q most times and almost certainly folds out hands we're ahead of.

the check/call/lead is how many would play a king and gives us the best chance to fold out worse hands. i certainly could be and have been wrong, but i think the only way you are going to get called by worse is by shoving the flop, if you dont do that you need to play it to show the most strength and maxing FE.

tell me where my logic is messed up pls

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

Considering nobody seems in agreement, guess i'm not alone in thinking this is tough.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

C/Shove or C/Fold, I don't like leading here

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

raise 400-500 preflop. After doing this, the lines to take on the flop are (1) bet about 1/2 pot and fold to a raise or call if hes nutso retardo (2) c/f (3) if hes really horrible aggro you can check and get all in.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
Considering nobody seems in agreement, guess i'm not alone in thinking this is tough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most are in agreement that 600 is not a great raise size.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Considering nobody seems in agreement, guess i'm not alone in thinking this is tough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most are in agreement that 600 is not a great raise size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, with 14BB one really dont want to open-raise with TT - it's much better if someone raise before one and then one do a re-raise all-in.

In this case - a limp hoping for a raise and then re-raise is a viable option. If noone raise preflop we see a cheap flop and can check-fold against any aggression since with 2 overcards on the flop we cant hope to be ahead.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

Pre-flop :
hero M = 2825/300 = 9.5 , 14 bb
villain M = 7683/300 = 25.5 , 38.5 bb

Flop :
hero M = 2225/300 = 7 , 11 bb
villain M = 7083/300 = 23.5 , 35.5 bb
pot M = 1500/300 = 5, 7.5 bb
pot/hero = 71%
pot/villain = 21%
hero/villain = 30%

Pre-flop: I shove this every time, but I think limping is viable. Non-push raising and folding are not viable.

As played: Unless he's a complete nit, villain's calling range is very wide. I shove this flop every time. You really can't afford to have M damaged further.

All other options involve making a lot of assumptions which perhaps could give you an edge if you had a higher M to play with, but here thinking too much is not justified. You have little maneuverability and you can not withstand further risk. It's a 2-rank board, shove it.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

yeah bond, limp

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]


Pre-flop: I shove this every time, but I think limping is viable. Non-push raising... not viable.

[ QUOTE ]


I think limping is somewhat viable. Betgo has a solid ROI after all. Opening is also viable. BB may call wide, this may induce a shove from a worse hand that doesn't call a shove etc.

[ QUOTE ]

As played: Unless he's a complete nit, villain's calling range is very wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's total nonsense. Why would anyone flat call with a wide range, no implied odds because hero is so short and half the table yet to act? This isn't to say that villain isn't a complete spaz but his range should be somewhat narrow, not somewhat wide.

Edit: I suck at quoting.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As played: Unless he's a complete nit, villain's calling range is very wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's total nonsense. Why would anyone flat call with a wide range, no implied odds because hero is so short and half the table yet to act? This isn't to say that villain isn't a complete spaz but his range should be somewhat narrow, not somewhat wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should villain be analyzed as if a deep thinker ? Or should villain be analyzed simply as having a relatively deep stack and being in relatively EP ?

Villain has 38.5 bb, it's &lt; 1/12 of his stack to call. Does he even calculate this far? Maybe he still considers a few blinds as inconsequential to his stack.

We know nothing abou villain, but lots of players who don't think too hard about their calls until they're short will call 3bb with a wide range if they face 4 yet to act.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Pre-flop: I shove this every time, but I think limping is viable. Non-push raising... not viable.

[ QUOTE ]


I think limping is somewhat viable. Betgo has a solid ROI after all. Opening is also viable. BB may call wide, this may induce a shove from a worse hand that doesn't call a shove etc.

[ QUOTE ]

As played: Unless he's a complete nit, villain's calling range is very wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's total nonsense. Why would anyone flat call with a wide range, no implied odds because hero is so short and half the table yet to act? This isn't to say that villain isn't a complete spaz but his range should be somewhat narrow, not somewhat wide.

Edit: I suck at quoting.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


I did a search on my name. Preflop, limping is playable, but I wouldn't do it with this hand and stack size. I don't see anything wrong with as played or a smaller raise. You could open push, which is only slighly cEV+.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Considering nobody seems in agreement, guess i'm not alone in thinking this is tough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most are in agreement that 600 is not a great raise size.

[/ QUOTE ]

As well as most are in agreement that you should be c/something rather then b/something on the flop. Whether you fold or shove after checking is easier for OP to decide since he has been playing with the mofo.

Re: Common spot i suck at
 

i definitely raise 500 or less preflop

on the flop here in a standard 109 FO, i'm split between c/s and c/f, depending on my feel of the opponent. i'd definitely take a quick look at their pokerdb while making up my mind.