spot
 

a friend played this hand online in a 10-handed game.
All he is seen from SB is that he once raised AK, made a pair, and bet every street. He is tight.

BB is unknown.

Hero raises QQ utg, SB 3bets, BB calls, hero caps, both call.

flop: 678r
sb bets, bb calls, hero raises, sb 3bets, bb coldcalls, her calls.

turn:5
sb check, bb checks, hero....?

Re: spot
 

hero should bet the turn and decide these are the last chips he's putting in the pot unless he makes a set on the river and it's checked to him. it's close though because the chances bb held on on the flop to make a straight or that sb has a bigger overpair are high. betting's a little better than checking because letting players he has beat draw for free to open-ender on the board for a chop is -EV, also hero can fold easily to a turn c/r and expect to be drawing dead to miracle chop.

Re: spot
 

I don't like this spot. I might lean toward checking and seeing what happens. SB seems tight from your description, and this isn't 6 max where an UTG raise doesn't mean a top 5-10 hand, and the SB would continue with any overpair. I think we are behind way too often here, and SB is checking because he is fearful of BB and the 4 to a straight, not because of our hand...

Re: spot
 

i think mike is right on with everything that he said

Re: spot
 

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i think mike is right on with everything that he said

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Re: spot
 

Pretty sure I hate the flop raise. Everything else is as per mike's post.

Re: spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
a friend played this hand online in a 10-handed game.
All he is seen from SB is that he once raised AK, made a pair, and bet every street. He is tight.

BB is unknown.

Hero raises QQ utg, SB 3bets, BB calls, hero caps, both call.

flop: 678r
sb bets, bb calls, hero raises, sb 3bets, bb coldcalls, her calls.

turn:5
sb check, bb checks, hero....?

[/ QUOTE ]

it should read "all he HAS seen from SB....". I am dumb.

Re: spot
 

well, best case scenario would be BB has overcards or a pair below QQ. Sb almost always has QQ beat here. The question is would he fold to a bet on the turn? That would be the only reason I would bet.

If you guys were the SB and held KK or AA would you fold to a turn bet? Would you have bet the turn in the first place?

Re: spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
well, best case scenario would be BB has overcards or a pair below QQ. Sb almost always has QQ beat here. The question is would he fold to a bet on the turn? That would be the only reason I would bet.

If you guys were the SB and held KK or AA would you fold to a turn bet? Would you have bet the turn in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is folding AA or KK against an UTG raise on this board. Don't be ridiculous. His range includes very few hands that have sets or straights. Recall, UTG raised pre and capped a SB 3 bet.

Re: spot
 

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well, best case scenario would be BB has overcards or a pair below QQ. Sb almost always has QQ beat here. The question is would he fold to a bet on the turn? That would be the only reason I would bet.



If you guys were the SB and held KK or AA would you fold to a turn bet? Would you have bet the turn in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is folding AA or KK against an UTG raise on this board. Don't be ridiculous. His range includes very few hands that have sets or straights. Recall, UTG raised pre and capped a SB 3 bet.

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OK! recall, everybody at this table is pretty unknown to each other, I know plenty of players who would cap UTG with hands that make a straight here and YES I have seen people fold there Big pairs to a bet here face up.

Stop analyzing hands as if everybody plays the way they should. Don't be ridiculous.

Re: spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well, best case scenario would be BB has overcards or a pair below QQ. Sb almost always has QQ beat here. The question is would he fold to a bet on the turn? That would be the only reason I would bet.

If you guys were the SB and held KK or AA would you fold to a turn bet? Would you have bet the turn in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is folding AA or KK against an UTG raise on this board. Don't be ridiculous. His range includes very few hands that have sets or straights. Recall, UTG raised pre and capped a SB 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

so, are you checking the turn and then folding the river? were you gonna fold a turn blank after calling the flop?

Re: spot
 

Who is this question for?

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Who is this question for?

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surfdoc.

Re: spot
 

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well, best case scenario would be BB has overcards or a pair below QQ. Sb almost always has QQ beat here. The question is would he fold to a bet on the turn? That would be the only reason I would bet.



If you guys were the SB and held KK or AA would you fold to a turn bet? Would you have bet the turn in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is folding AA or KK against an UTG raise on this board. Don't be ridiculous. His range includes very few hands that have sets or straights. Recall, UTG raised pre and capped a SB 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK! recall, everybody at this table is pretty unknown to each other, I know plenty of players who would cap UTG with hands that make a straight here and YES I have seen people fold there Big pairs to a bet here face up.

Stop analyzing hands as if everybody plays the way they should. Don't be ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread is getting confusing since the action is being looked at from multiple sides. Yes, some people will fold overpairs on scary boards. However, in general, the games Bob is talking about are 10/20 and higher. These guys tend to have at least basic hand reading skills. Sure the capper CAN be on a variation play and have capped 77. If that's the case he will just get paid off. The point is that trying to get someone to fold AA or KK in big pots playing limit hold em is not the key to getting rich. SBs check in this hand is defensive. He isn't going to c/f AA.

Re: spot
 

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well, best case scenario would be BB has overcards or a pair below QQ. Sb almost always has QQ beat here. The question is would he fold to a bet on the turn? That would be the only reason I would bet.

If you guys were the SB and held KK or AA would you fold to a turn bet? Would you have bet the turn in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is folding AA or KK against an UTG raise on this board. Don't be ridiculous. His range includes very few hands that have sets or straights. Recall, UTG raised pre and capped a SB 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

so, are you checking the turn and then folding the river? were you gonna fold a turn blank after calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I playing the hand from your buddy's perspective?

Re: spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well, best case scenario would be BB has overcards or a pair below QQ. Sb almost always has QQ beat here. The question is would he fold to a bet on the turn? That would be the only reason I would bet.

If you guys were the SB and held KK or AA would you fold to a turn bet? Would you have bet the turn in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is folding AA or KK against an UTG raise on this board. Don't be ridiculous. His range includes very few hands that have sets or straights. Recall, UTG raised pre and capped a SB 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

so, are you checking the turn and then folding the river? were you gonna fold a turn blank after calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I playing the hand from your buddy's perspective?

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yes.

Re: spot
 

"The point is that trying to get someone to fold AA or KK in big pots playing limit hold em is not the key to getting rich. SBs check in this hand is defensive. He isn't going to c/f AA."

well said. the concept of reading defensive checks is an important one.

Re: spot
 

Hero bets and folds to a call. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: spot
 

What is buddy's image and/or stats. I would bet this turn.

Re: spot
 

i dislike betting the turn with the intention of only putting one more bet in. if thats the case then checing turn and calling or betting river is better bc you realize your full equity if you hit a set.

ya i know its small, but i just dont see the point of betting the turn.

Re: spot
 

I am not sure how often bb will be cring a set on this board, though it was be nice to have a read on him.

Re: spot
 

Check and try to hit your 2 outer to a win or 8 outer to a chop.

Re: spot
 

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Check and try to hit your 2 outer to a win or 8 outer to a chop.

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so, if the river is a 2 and you get bet into, you are folding?

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i dont like hero's flop line, I'd rather call.

as played bet the turn with the intention of not seeing a river card. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: spot
 

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Check and try to hit your 2 outer to a win or 8 outer to a chop.

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so, if the river is a 2 and you get bet into, you are folding?

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We're comparing whether or not its better to spend 1 bet on the turn vs the river. We can all agree that we're likely behind to sb and that he is never folding a better hand. So why are we betting? We're just asking for trouble. The pot is a pretty significant size and if we discount our outs to chop, we have about 4 or 5 outs or about 12% equity or so. So if the only choice is bet the turn or call a river bet, I vote for the river bet.

Now if we too surfdoc's line and called the flop, a turn bet might be justified as sb's hand could be TT/JJ/or even AK and there might be some value in betting and checking behind the turn.