Another river bluff raise.
 

I use to never bluff raise the river. Now I cant help myself [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

No real reads except he seemed bad. I had already decided on calling the river donk because river donks = I missed my draw. So another "Elindauerish value/bluff river raise".

Spew?

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">hero raises</font>, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.4SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, hero calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.2BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5.2BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises</font>

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

Haha, welcome to the club. I've made a conscious effort to stop doing this stuff.

Without a read I think it's spew, but effectively 7 to 1 is a good price. Still, I think people who play this badly with a pair convince themselves to payoff on the river. I think a decent policy is don't try to get unknowns to fold pairs. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

Villain played this kind of odd, and without a read I wouldn't dare a bluffraise. Do you put him on a draw when he c/c turn? What do you think he's donking river with? He could be bluffing and I think you're right that you should call this. Your raise will probably make him fold the hands you beat anyway and cost you an extra bet when he has a decent hand.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

oink,
i like this one better, mostly since you are effectively repping a ton of hands that crush the BB's donking range.

That said, its still a pretty expensive bluff and I don't think 9x/pps/Tx-thats-willing-to-fold make up enough of BB's range to make this a play I would make routinely.

ps-can you please clarify wtf an elindauer bluff is? Is it the same idea as when clarkmeister/ed miller/JA Sucker/etc say they'd rather raise K-hi on the river whenever they are thinking of calling with it? Or is it a legitimate value-bluff where you think worse hands could pay off occasionally (which is what i thought it was but your examples dont agree).

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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ps-can you please clarify wtf an elindauer bluff is? Is it the same idea as when clarkmeister/ed miller/JA Sucker/etc say they'd rather raise K-hi on the river whenever they are thinking of calling with it? Or is it a legitimate value-bluff where you think worse hands could pay off occasionally (which is what i thought it was but your examples dont agree).

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Its the first. You intend to call anyway so might as well raise in case villain folds a better hand. Since you want to call your odds on the bluff are better as you effectively pay just 1 extra bet to bluff.

send you a pm BTW

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

You must raise this flop, not the river. BB could have anything, and you've got overcards w/draws. No way he's folding to your river raise unless he missed a draw. If so, he still might even 3-bet your ass...

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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You must raise this flop

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plz explain y

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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You must raise this flop, not the river.

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LOL

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He's not folding to your river raise, no way...

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Orly..?

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

I believe raising the flop is your best chance (and the cheapest way) to quickly get him to fold. In the BB, he may not even have anything. Even if he calls, you have overs, draws, and position HU. Makes this a must-raise IMO. Lead out on the turn, or take a free river card if you want, but I'd definitely bet this turn. Check behind on the river UI...

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe raising the flop is your best chance (and the cheapest way) to quickly get him to fold. In the BB, he may not even have anything. Even if he calls, you have overs, draws, and position HU. Makes this a must-raise IMO. Lead out on the turn, or take a free river card if you want, but I'd definitely bet this turn. Check behind on the river UI...

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I actually sort of like this reasoning i mean you have a pretty damn nice draw and wouldn't you raise A9 and better a lot here too?

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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I believe raising the flop is your best chance (and the cheapest way) to quickly get him to fold.

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Care to elaborate on which games you play..? In my games (party mid stakes) this happens like 1 in a million.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

Also. Raising the flop because you want him to fold air is bad as well. With a pot this small its much better to let him keep bluffing his 6 outer.

raising here will in general never fold a better hand so when he folds it was with a hand where the value of him bluffing again on the turn is better.

I am sorry, but raising the flop is terrible!

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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Also. Raising the flop because you want him to fold air is bad as well. With a pot this small its much better to let him keep bluffing his 6 outer.

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Some fold air, but some don't. Many loose players will never fold to a flop raise regardless of what they have (I think it's called the "half-in" rule). Force him to make bad calls, not bluff-bets.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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Also. Raising the flop because you want him to fold air is bad as well. With a pot this small its much better to let him keep bluffing his 6 outer.

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Some fold air, but some don't. Many loose players will never fold to a flop raise regardless of what they have (I think it's called the "half-in" rule). Force him to make bad calls, not bluff-bets.

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So now you want to raise the flop for value? I am confused. Do you want him to fold his air or call with air? as far as I can see you first wanted him to fold right now and now you want him to make bad calls with air..? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Also, if you want to raise for value. Please to be stating the range you put him on because I highly doubt there is any value in a flop raise with K high here.

Dude! raising the flop is terrible!

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

I like this play better than the other bluff raises. I know the ILP said he thought the Qhigh one on the end was correct, but I just thought it looked like spew.

On this hand I can see this villain donking into you with a T, 9, or small pkt pair desperately hoping that you think he has a 4. Of course he could also do this with total crap, but in that case your KQ high is good and the raise is unneccessary. I think the parlay of the chance that you fold out a T, 9, or smaller pkt pair makes this play ok. for others reading this I would never try this play below 5/10 as noone will ever fold. Occasionally at 5/10 or higher it seems you can get people to b/f the river, this just doesn't happen at .25/.50-3/6.

Also it would help if you would give some reasons why he seemed bad. I would be much more willing to make this play against a bad TAG, a passive-nit, or LAG than some other types.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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I use to never bluff raise the river. Now I cant help myself

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haha this is why I've never made a value bluff raise hand post. the last thing I need are TAGs doing this to me

this looks alright though I'd rather have some sort of read.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

i wouldn't take 7-1 that he has a folds a 9 or T

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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i wouldn't take 7-1 that he has a folds a 9 or T

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bad players aren't bet/folding a T or 9 here ever, that's why they are bad players.

they probably checked the turn because of the A

and for what it's worth, if this guy folded, you were probably winning with KQ anyway.

I liked the q9 hand, because better non pair hands can fold, but here, there are no better non pair hands, and ppl don't fold pairs, so basically, your raise does nothing but charge you 1BB when behind, and net you 0BB when actually ahead.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

don't bluff raise nut-no-pair

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

this is why I never bluff-raise the river. I thought this was one hand we had a chance to rep an A, a flush, or the 4 and actually fold out pairs that are beating us. Apparently the consensus is that noone ever folds a better hand here.

I'm sure I'm giving up some equity by not having this play in my arsenal, but I think I would misapply it to often to gain anything from it.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

My head is starting to hurt thinking about the flop play on this hand. I do not understand how a raise is terrible. Seems like your chances of folding out a better hand with a turn bet would at least be non-zero. Plus you have a nice draw and you get value the times he is also on a draw and (hopefully) the option of a cheap showdown.

Having said that, I think a call is a little better for the reasons Oink stated.

Now, why did you bet the turn? Is this for value because I don't see him ever c/f'ing a better hand? I think turn check is the way to go and call the river if you think he'll bluff often enough.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

This play seems fine against a taggish player that intends on bet/folding J9. Against a bad player, I don't think this play works often enough. These players never fold after committing a bet to the pot. I think this is especially true on the river.

The one thing you have going for you is that your river raise says, "no really, I have an ace." If the turn action wasn't enough to convince him, maybe a river raise will clue him into the fact that his pair isn't any good. He may very well fold, but I think it's very borderline. I think the fact that he's a bad player and never folds carries more weight than how convincing you are in representing an ace.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

I´m okay with the river raise. I believe that many better hands will fold on the river. a T,9 or a low PP will often fold (and if he doesn´t fold he is making a mistake in the long run).Even halfbad players understands that you "must" have an A or a flush when you raise river.
It is hard to get into non-logical players minds. But if we have to put him on a hand worth donking I would go with that he has a pair or a 4.
When he check/calls turn it feels like he doesn´t want his pair to get raised. If he was on a draw I think another bet from him had been more likely
So if we don´t like to raise the flop I don´t think we should bet turn either. The reason for not raising the flop was that you thought there was a risk that you were behind and that you wanted him to continue bluffing if you were ahead.
I think it is a little bit inconsistent to bet turn charging his worse hands if you don´t like raising flop. Especially since his check IMO is more indicative of a player heading for showdown than one being on a draw.
He is not going to fold anything you already beat since a bet from you when he checked pretty much tells him nothing about your hand.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

trypt: ya flop raise is not close to terrible. how can anything be terrible when you probably have low 40s equity and position?

bob: but tags know betting the river w/ J9 here is pretty ridiculous.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

I reserve this play for when I have a strong read.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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bob: but tags know betting the river w/ J9 here is pretty ridiculous.

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Yeah I was gonna say that a tag wouldn't play J9 or too many other hands like this, but I think my point was that if it was a tag making a what looks like a bet/fold (perhaps wa/wb) play on the river, then raising should work.

A bad player could bet J9 on the river, but I think this player is going to call a raise if he's going to bet.

Re: Another river bluff raise.
 

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Also. Raising the flop because you want him to fold air is bad as well. With a pot this small its much better to let him keep bluffing his 6 outer.

raising here will in general never fold a better hand so when he folds it was with a hand where the value of him bluffing again on the turn is better.

I am sorry, but raising the flop is terrible!

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oink,
its amusing that you are capable of raising the river as a sophisticated "elindauer-bluff" but not raising the flop as a semibluff. Your equity + position + implied odds are plenty to justify a raise