florida has done it
 

both houses have passed the new bill letting limit games be upto 5 5 which is a lot better then 2 2. also i went to the florida house website and read the exact bill. it states something like this: the card rooms can have no limits on betting IF THE REQUIRED BUY-IN IS LESS THEN 100. that leaves a loop hole that should allow the cardrooms to have something like 1-2 with a 80 minimum 200 maximum or even a 2 5 with a 80 minimum and a 300-500 maximum. it does not say 100 maximum buy-in anywhere in the bill.

Re: florida has done it
 

There has already been some talk of this issue and as an attorney who has extensively covered and counseled clients on the Florida State laws in this area, I have to say that this interpretation is a perversion of the intended meaning and spirit of the legislation.

Lets face it, this legislation is a long awaited step in the right direction for poker players and I think everyone would agree that there is still alot more room for improvement.

Having said that I dont think it wise to jeopardize future legislative concessions by pushing the envelope too far too soon. The ink isnt even dry on this bill (let alone signed by the governor).

I know that the problems already experienced by the pari-mutuals and indeed the center of their previous litigation centered on the interpretation of tournament buyins.

The State took the position that the maximum bet being $2 with a maximum amount of 3 raises per betting round would add up to a possible total amount a person could possibly lose on one hand as $32. This is why the maximum tournament buyins was $45......$32 being the total amount possible to lose on the very first hand of the tournament plus $13 fee for the poker room to cover overhead.

This new legislation sets a maximum required buyin of $100 meaning that the most a person could possibly lose on the very first hand after buying in would be $100. To allow a person to buy in for more (lets say $500) would in theory mean that they could lose more than $100 on the very first hand which I dont think complies with the "spirit" of the statute.

I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just saying how the State has interpreted its own laws in the past as a guide for how they will interprete this law in the future.

I know alot of folks are looking at this new law and reading it in light of how internet poker was traditionally set up where a site would post a required buyin while allowing the person to actually buyin for more up to and including their entire account balance if they so wanted giving them a huge deep stack advantage.

As poker players we all know the advantages and disadvantages of this strategy but I remind you that the folks in Tallahassee are just getting up to speed on this "new" poker craze centered on Texas Hold'em (they even call it that the law itself), and I assure you they are not that poker savy to know the dichotomy between a buyin and a required buyin.

Believe me they are looking at this and saying the most we want a person to lose at one time is 100 bucks up from the original $32 we allowed under the previous legislation.

Besides I dont think the cardrooms would push this the envelope that far without at least a written attorney general's opinion on how the State would view this.

These folks are none too happy about the expansion of slot machines and the impending release they have to give the Seminoles by taking their handcuffs off now that slots are legal and the federal laws that help the indian tribes when it comes to gaming, so I dont suggest we pissed in their ears too much too soon.

Also, this is of course just my opinion.

Re: florida has done it
 

[ QUOTE ]
These folks are none too happy about the expansion of slot machines and the impending release they have to give the Seminoles by taking their handcuffs off now that slots are legal and the federal laws that help the indian tribes when it comes to gaming

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean by this. Who does "these folks" refer to?

Re: florida has done it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These folks are none too happy about the expansion of slot machines and the impending release they have to give the Seminoles by taking their handcuffs off now that slots are legal and the federal laws that help the indian tribes when it comes to gaming

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean by this. Who does "these folks" refer to?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific, I was talking about the conservative base which holds a significant voice in State wide politics especially outside of south florida.

Re: florida has done it
 

the word maximum is not used in the bill. also considering how my expierience in florida card rooms shows some people are gonna lose 2k playing this 100nl in one sitting.

Re: florida has done it
 

I'm from Tallahasse and it's anything but a conservative town. Anyway looks like the legislators f-ed up, because as far as can I see, poker rooms should be able to hold 100 min/1 billion$ max buy-in games if they want. I'm moving back just in time [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: florida has done it
 

SO when you say 2/2, you mean to say the bet sizes don't increase on the turn and river?

Re: florida has done it
 

[ QUOTE ]
SO when you say 2/2, you mean to say the bet sizes don't increase on the turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

nope

Re: florida has done it
 

[ QUOTE ]
the word maximum is not used in the bill. also considering how my expierience in florida card rooms shows some people are gonna lose 2k playing this 100nl in one sitting.

[/ QUOTE ]

amen

Re: florida has done it
 

I checked it out -- it's legit!

HOORAY!

P.S. Bye bye trips to Vegas.

Re: florida has done it
 

Hoorah! If Florida can do it so can Texas! Yay!

Re: florida has done it
 

NY60 - I agree with your interpretation of what the legislature intended to pass (from a review of the staff analysis of the bill); however, the bill text, as passed, states in pertinent part as follows:

"However, a cardroom operator may conduct games of Texas Hold-em without a betting limit if the required player buy-in is no more than $100."

This is a plain-language interpretation issue. I don't think the legislative history will have any bearing on the ultimate result, which, barring a veto, should be uncapped NL games w/a max buyin of $100.

Re: florida has done it
 

So, I have a question related to the Indian Reservation Casinos (like the Hard Rock in Tampa). They are already in violation of the laws the pari-mutuels have to live by, so are they under their own set of laws?

Some of the laws they break currently:
-24/7 cardroom
-SNG's with buyins higher than $32 (they have games up to $500+35)
-They obviously don't have a track of any kind

So under which laws dio they operate? I would assume none ... it seems like a handshake agreement to not have cash games higher than the $2 big bet since they are breaking so many other laws ...

Anyone know?

Re: florida has done it
 

[ QUOTE ]
both houses have passed the new bill letting limit games be upto 5 5 which is a lot better then 2 2. also i went to the florida house website and read the exact bill. it states something like this: the card rooms can have no limits on betting IF THE REQUIRED BUY-IN IS LESS THEN 100. that leaves a loop hole that should allow the cardrooms to have something like 1-2 with a 80 minimum 200 maximum or even a 2 5 with a 80 minimum and a 300-500 maximum. it does not say 100 maximum buy-in anywhere in the bill.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't know where you are getting your info. Here i have copy/pasted from the text of the bill:

However, a cardroom operator may conduct games of
111 Texas Hold'em without a betting limit provided the maximum
112 required player buy-in does not exceed $100.
The word Maximum is pretty clear to see. Just don't want to get people's hopes up.
Here is the page I referenced. If I am wrong...I'm sure you will let me know!
http://www.flsenate.gov/cgi-bin/view_pag.../billtext/html/

Re: florida has done it
 

Re-read.

"Maximum REQUIRED player buy-in does not exceed $100." Therefore, you should not be able to sit down at any cash table and be forced to lose more than $100 on your first hand because you HAD to pony up more than $100 to sit at the table.

This means that according strictly to that verbiage, you could have a $1/$2 NL game with a minimum buy in of $40 and a max of $200. People are not REQUIRED to buy in for $200, they can buy in for $40.

Required Maximum does not equal Maximum.

We'll have to see how the different poker rooms treat this wording. I hope they treat it as above because $1/$2 NL $100MAX is a ridiculous game.

Re: florida has done it
 

Thanks for clearing that up for me. That's why I am NOT a lawyer!
Has anyone found a cardroom that is planning on challenging the verbage and allow a higher than $100 buy-in? I seriously doubt Daytona will unless ALL the other tracks have done it and someone has yank their tale outta their butts.

Re: florida has done it
 

[ QUOTE ]

.
.

"However, a cardroom operator may conduct games of Texas Hold-em without a betting limit if the required player buy-in is no more than $100."

.
.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps they meant to say was:

"However, a cardroom operator may conduct games of Texas Hold-em without a betting limit if the permitted player buy-in is no more than $100."

If so, then they missed the mark pretty badly.

Tuff
.

Re: florida has done it
 

Whoever drafted this language either flubbed the drafting or meant to pull a fast one. Since most legislation is drafted on behalf of special interest groups and submitted to a legislator for introduction as a bill ... I'm going for the latter.

What I'm really interested in seeing are the proposed regulations/notice of rulemaker that should be coming out in a few weeks. Then we'll see how the state intends to interpret the statute and will have a public comment opportunity to point out the plain language of the statute/threaten to challenge any improperly worded regulations.

It's all good.

Re: florida has done it
 

[ QUOTE ]

What I'm really interested in seeing are the proposed regulations/notice of rulemaker that should be coming out in a few weeks. Then we'll see how the state intends to interpret the statute and will have a public comment opportunity to point out the plain language of the statute/threaten to challenge any improperly worded regulations.

It's all good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please go into more detail regarding what you know about the process?

Re: florida has done it
 

Parimutuel poker rooms in Florida are regulated by the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation, Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering (see http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/index.shtml). The Division is responsible for promulgating rules that implement the laws passed by the legislature.

Rulemaking is a multi-step process that includes:
(1) Drafting the rule or rule amendment;
(2) Approval of the rule or rule amendment by the appropriate agency official;
(3) Publishing a Notice of Proposed Rule Development in the Florida Administrative Weekly;
(4) Publishing a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking in the F.A.W.;
(5) An opportunity for public participation by means of notice, a 21-day public comment period,
and public hearing, if requested by an affected party or at the discretion of the originating agency;
(6) A hearing before the Division of Administrative Hearings on the validity of a rule may be
required if a proper petition challenging the rule is filed by a substantially affected person;
(7) If necessary, changes in the rule or rule amendment by the originating agency following the
Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, based on comments and materials received during the public
comment period or hearing, or in response to comments or objections from the Joint Administrative
Procedures Committee. Notice of these changes must be published in the F.A.W. at least 21 days
prior to adoption and shall be filed with J.A.P.C. If no changes are made or only technical changes
are made, the originating agency shall notify J.A.P.C. of that fact at least 7 days before adoption;
(8) Preparing the rule or rule amendment for adoption with A.C.S.;
(9) Filing the rule or rule amendment for adoption with the A.C.S., which becomes effective 20
days after filing, or at a later date specified in the rule.

Each of these steps is dealt with in detail in the following on-line manual: https://www.flrules.org/rmhb.pdf

The various notices and proposed rules are available online at the Division's website and at the official publication site at https://www.flrules.org/Default.asp.

As stated above, typically a proposed notice has 21 days of public commenting period from the day it is published in FAW (above-referenced link). You can make a comment to a proposed rule either through FAW's website or in hard-copy form via the U.S. mail.

The first step is, of course, to wait for the Division to issue a Notice of Proposed Rule Development --- then we can see what they have in mind.

Re: florida has done it
 

Here is a link directly to the Florida Government Web Site listing all the Bills and amendments.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/B...ssionId=54&

Here are the key changes from the Bills which PASSED in case you do not want to read them all.

(b) The cardroom operator may limit the amount wagered
in any game or series of games, but the maximum bet may not exceed $10 in value. There may not be more than three raises in any round of betting. The fee charged by the cardroom for participation in the game shall not be included in the calculation of the limitation on the bet amount provided in this paragraph.

However, a cardroom operator may conduct games
of Texas Hold-em without a betting limit if the required
player buy-in is no more than $100.

c) A tournament shall consist of a series of games.
The entry fee for a tournament, including any re-buys, may not exceed the maximum amount that could be wagered by a
participant in 10 like-kind, nontournament games under
paragraph (b)

d) A cardroom operator may award giveaways, jackpots,
and prizes to a player who holds certain combinations of cards specified by the cardroom operator

Any horserace, greyhound, or jai alai permitholder
licensed under this chapter may operate a cardroom at its
pari-mutuel facility between the hours of 10 a.m. and 2 a.m.

HIGH-STAKES POKER TOURNAMENTS
a) A cardroom operator may host a televised
high-stakes poker tournament twice each year for 1 week at a
pari-mutuel facility that is authorized to operate cardrooms
during the hours that the pari-mutuel facility is open to
conduct business. Such a tournament may be conducted only once in any 6-month period.

I agree that the wording of "a required player buy-in is no more than $100." For non tournament NL Games is unclear because it dosn't set a max buyin.
It was most likely meant to limit the amount a player could lose on a given hand and will most likely and should be clarified to include a max buy-in.

Anyway this is a monumental leap forward from what we had!!!

Re: florida has done it
 

The only bills in your list that actually passed were SB 752 - related to $5 limits and the "may conduct games of Texas Hold-em without a betting limit if the required player buy-in is no more than $100" language we've been discussing - and SB 134 - related to dominoes.

The $10 bet limit and the high-stakes poker tournament bills failed to pass.

Only bills listed as "Enrolled" passed both houses and were sent to the Governor. The Governor typically has 7 days to veto a bill (15 if enrolled and transmitted at the end of a legislative session - which is the case with SB 752). If he fails to veto the enrolled bill, it automatically becomes law ... or he can sign the bill into law.

Re: florida has done it
 

New user here. Hippo, i've been reading all your posts and thank you for all the info.

I live in Orlando.

Is Orlando going to implement these Jai Lai and dog track opportunities or they going to continue to be a Disney bitch?

I have to go to Daytona or Melbourne now to play.

Sure would be nice if we got some no limit in O'town.

Re: florida has done it
 

This bill applies to the entire state. It would be up to your local card room whether or not they wanted to take advantage of the new higher betting limits. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't, unless there is a city ordinance that overrides the state laws.

Re: florida has done it
 

Thanks.

Does anybody out there know if Seminole or Orange County or the city has ordinances prohibiting this?

(I smell a stinky mouse)

Re: florida has done it
 

None that I am aware of. Last I heard the Orlando Sanford Kennel Club was trying to acquire a poker room license but was being opposed by the neighboring church. I don't know the status of that but it would be nice to not have to drive out to Melbourne. How does the Daytona Beach room compare?

Re: florida has done it
 

Personally, I like it better. It's smaller, and the decor isn't as nice. Just personal preference.

As far as the play. WILD. I'm a patient player and I do ok. Give it a shot.

Oh, and the women at Daytona are better looking. Their play is about the same.

Re: florida has done it
 

Re: Daytona vs Melbourne...I live closer to Daytona but prefer Melbourne. Facilty is nicer, the tourneys are superior (as far as turbos go) compared to Daytona.
They have a Omaha Hi/Lo going most of the time. I personally noticed that the players aren't as loose as Daytona fish. At least I don't get as many bad beats in Melbourne. The dealers are for the most part faster in Melbourne and they don't have as many acounting rules to follow.
(licking lips for July 1st)

Re: florida has done it
 

Another poster in the other thread about this bill accurately pointed out that the legislature hasn't sent the bill to the Governor yet ... so the clock on his signature or veto hasn't started to run. There's no real standard on when a passed bill has to be sent to the Governor (other than a "reasonable" amount of time) ... so we're still going to have to wait for a few weeks to see what happens with this bill.

Re: florida has done it
 

True. But I remember during the election, Christ was the only candidate to not be polarized on the card/casino thing. Jeb was vehemently against it, Christ was on record saying he really didn't care either way and it would be up to the people.

Not sure how this change got started, but I'm sure it was the parimutuels who started it the day Christ got in office.

Re: florida has done it
 

Yeah - I'm not expecting a veto.

Re: florida has done it
 

It's Crist, by the way. Not to be confused with Jesus.

It started with lawmakers trying to come up with ways to generate revenue in a state whose economy is teetering on disaster.

Re: florida has done it
 

Our economy is doing great ... it's our property taxes that SUCK.

They've got a special legislative session starting next month ... running two weeks to address the tax relief issue. Hopefully some more gambling concessions will come out of that special session.

Re: florida has done it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Our economy is doing great ...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not serious. Are you?

Re: florida has done it
 

It's great compared to like Kazakhstan. At least I haven't had to buy a horse to drag my car around. Yet.

Re: florida has done it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our economy is doing great ...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not serious. Are you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a transactional lawyer and I'm slammed busy ... so I think it is ... the real estate sector is taking it in the shorts ... but that's ThreeBeers's problem [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: florida has done it
 

Telltale signs of a crappy economy:

Inflation
Rising fuel prices
Rising interest rates
Home foreclosures
Business closings
Tight job market
Expansion of gambling laws
Busy lawyers

Re: florida has done it
 

Well -- the legal economy is doing great [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: florida has done it
 

Does anyone know where the nearest poker room in Florida is, if I'm coming from GA? Sorry for the off beat question, I just didn't want to start a new thead that would be completely worthless.

Re: florida has done it
 

It depends on what part of Georgia you are coming from. Here's a link to a map of parimutuels in Florida, the ones marked with a "C" have cardrooms: Florida Parimutuel Locations .