Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

Wonderfull topic aint it? Im so frustrated right now, I'm ready to quit... Again.. I know I haven't been on the forums that long but I need help bad, constructive critisizm, ragg on me, whatever, I need to find out what I'm doing wrong when I donk off my entire stack the day after I deposit.

Here's the deal. About a year ago I would deposit $100 into my FT account about once a week, and lose it immediately, only to deposit more. So I quit. Then a couple weeks ago I bought 2 books, "Getting Started in Hold'em" and Small Stakes Hold'em. I finished the first book relatively quickly, wrote notes, did almost exactly what it said to do. So I decided to deposit $300 this past weekend.

I sat at a 1/2NL 6 ring, with $60. I decided to "shortstack" the table. folding, folding, waiting for my hands and eventually I doubled (about an hour), so I split the winnings into a second table.

At that table also I was doing excellent. Up over $400 profit in less than 2 hours from both tables, with my initial deposit still in my account, I was flyin high at that point.

I decided I was better than the game so I moved to 2/4NL 6 ring. Not doing as well as the 1/2NL but not losing either. Eventually I had close to $900 PROFIT in my account in one day.

I stopped for the night feeling good. Woke up the next morning at hit the computer immediately. Opened 2 2/4NL rings for $80 buy in's each and proceeded to lose from hand one. I was fluctuating up and down all day till the heartbreaker came.

2/4NL 6 player Max
Hero on the button
Hero A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises to 4.5 times the big blind

Everyone folds to cutoff
Villian calls

Flop
10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Villian bets the pot
Hero raises 3x the pot
Villain calls

Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero bets the pot
Villain calls

River 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

So I got 2 pair, thinking im in dam decent shape I go all in.

Pot is now almost $1000

Villain insta-calls

Villain shows a boat 6's full

I just about lost my head over this one, tilted instantly, how could someone call a preflop 3x raise with 10 friggin 6 offsuit?

So I stayed on after that and continued to lose my entire bankroll. I now have 4 cents in my account. Yay for me!

So, can you guys PLEASE help me and tell me what the hell im doing wrong, what I need to do, or if anyone wants to coach. Any help is apreciated. Im so pissed right now, I should just kill myself I think.

Thanks guys

DanielJay

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

Don't shortstack. Don't play when you're tilting. Drop down levels. Don't think on the board above "So I got 2 pair, thinking im in dam decent shape I go all in."

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

With a $100 roll you are not even close to those limits. You really should be playing 5nl with that roll. What you experienced in the hand above is called variance and you really have to be rolled properly to maki it through the inherent ups and downs.

My advice is:
1) Play within your roll (20-30 buy ins at the level you play)
2) Read the forums religiously, it is where I learned most of what I now know.
3) Invest in Pokertracker so you can go back over sessions and see what mistakes you made, and helps you make a more informed decision about when to get your money in.
4) When you feel tilted, like when someone makes a boat in a hand he should have never been in, TAKE A BREAK.

The most important thing IMO to not go busto is to practice proper bankroll management. I maintain around 1000 online and I am rolled for nl25, marginally rolled for nl50 but I live at nl25. It is my comfort zone and where I have achieved the best winrate. I am not going to make 1000 in one session but I will not lose my roll either.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

The hand you posted is just a bad result. Its not clear to me that you did anything wrong (I probably would have checked the turn back though). By the river you both had less than pot sized bet left and you were probably committed for the rest.

Why do you lose?
- Terrible bankroll management.
- Your probably not that good (you have never been a winner). You almost certainly not good enough to beat $1/2 and $2/4 NLHE - even as a short stacker.
- Variance

Deposit $100-$200 and play 10NL until you earn 15 buyins for the next level. If you do this your game will develope and you will not be at risk of getting outplayed a lot when you do move up in levels.


Lucky

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how could someone call a preflop 3x raise with 10 friggin 6 offsuit?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's either a bad player who got lucky, or a good player that realized that you stack off light and gave great implied odds.



[ QUOTE ]
Im so pissed right now, I should just kill myself I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't do that.



First: Move down! Way down.

Second: Keep moving down until you find a level you can beat consistently. Consistently meaning over thousands and thousands of hands.

Third: Develop a prudent bankroll strategy and only move up as appropriate.

Fourth:????

Fifth: Profit. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Hope this helps.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

Learn bankroll management and understand variance is all I can say.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The hand you posted is just a bad result. Its not clear to me that you did anything wrong (I probably would have checked the turn back though). By the river you both had less than pot sized bet left and you were probably committed for the rest.

Why do you lose?
- Terrible bankroll management.
- Your probably not that good (you have never been a winner). You almost certainly not good enough to beat $1/2 and $2/4 NLHE - even as a short stacker.
- Variance

Deposit $100-$200 and play 10NL until you earn 15 buyins for the next level. If you do this your game will develope and you will not be at risk of getting outplayed a lot when you do move up in levels.


Lucky

[/ QUOTE ]


You hit it right on the head i think. I can honestly say I have never been at winner,(at poker) becuase 90% of the time I give the winnings right back, only to deposit again, repeat, repeat, over and over.

Heres a question, what is 10NL? I probably just dont understand the abbrieviation. Is that 10 CENT? Or $10 max buy in?

Thanks

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

$0.05/0.10 blinds with a $10 max buy-in on most sites (AP has a $20 max buy-in for this game).

Lucky

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

Now im starting to realize how bad I was playing, took a large donation on my part to get the point. Im playing waaaaaay above my level. Thanks for the help. I will move down to the .05/.10 and stay there till I can beat it.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all theee time?
 

honestly you shouldnt play near 2/4. you dont have the roll, emotional constituion, or knowledge of key concepts like pot control to play anything above 25nl.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all theee time?
 

play pokerstars, they have .01/.02 NL & PL tables and far more limit tables. I've switched over to H/L games b/c of the action and so many horrible players there. Doing much better now and when I tilt it doesn't crush my roll. Only had to make 4 redeposits this week...that's down from the 7 I usually make....lol

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

So I decided to deposit $300 this past weekend.

This is a bankroll for 5c/10c NL. If you insist on putting 20% of your bankroll you are just asking to go broke. You learn by playing and adapting, and understanding that it is possible to play perfectly and lose in the short run. The only way to learn to win is to only play those stakes that fit your bankroll.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

daniel what is your FTP/stars screen name?

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

Another option is to switch over to S'n'G's or MTT's. This way you only lose your initial buy-in and can gain tons of experience with no fear of losing your roll.

A $200 deposit will pay for a ton of $2 to $5 buy-ins, especially once you begin cashing!!

Then take your winnings to the ring tables, never risking your entire bankroll...

Lose the winnings, move back to the tournies for a while...

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Learn bankroll management and understand variance is all I can say.

[/ QUOTE ]
Although many people have said bankroll management is one of the main problems, I have to disagree. I've written hundreds of posts on bankroll management, but it just doesn't apply here.

Your bankroll represents all of the money you are willing to lose at poker. Losing it is supposed to be a disaster, not an inconvenience. Your bankroll is not your balance.

If you have to withdraw tomorrow to pay bills, your bankroll may be less than your balance. If you can redeposit later, or have your money split between many sites, your bankroll is more than your balance. The OP he has been able to redeposit dozens of times. That strongly suggests that his balance is not his bankroll.

It is not irresponsible to play NL $200 with only $400 on a site. I've done it, and made a deposit during a hand because I thought there was a decent chance that I would want to reload afterwards and I didn't want to miss a hand. I had over a hundred buy-ins elsewhere, just not in the site with that lucky maniac, and it was definitely the right decision to play.

Bankroll management is for winning players. The OP needs to learn to win. Until then, he needs to set a budget, and play within that budget. If that means moving down to a level where an expert would have a 99% chance of not having to redeposit, it's just a coincidence. It could be that the right choice would give an expert an 80% chance, or 99.99% chance, but the OP is not an expert and can redeposit. Someone who deposits 50 times and has lost it all should not be assumed to be a winning player who can't redeposit. Bankroll management theory is mostly irrelevant.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

Pzhon I agree and disagree, is that possible? I agree that is not irresponsible to play nl200 with 400 on the site IF you are in the same mindset you would be walking into Commerce with 400 and play, win or lose, and leave. But if you are trying to make a deposit and build a roll from that, practice good BR management, and move up sitting with half your roll is not a good idea.

I would imagine a lot of us built our roll from meager beginnings and many of us did not practice good management of those funds and we are still ok. But over time we have learned how to do this.

Although I agree that your bankroll is not necessarily your "on hand funds" at any given site, I believe OPs is and a beginner without a sound fundamental understanding of the gameshould not be playing 2-4 unless he just has money to burn and it is an expense. Those of us that play as primary or supplemental income have at some point had to use sound bankroll management to keep up with variance.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Here's the deal. About a year ago I would deposit $100 into my FT account about once a week, and lose it immediately, only to deposit more. So I quit. Then a couple weeks ago I bought 2 books, "Getting Started in Hold'em" and Small Stakes Hold'em.


[/ QUOTE ]
SSHE is a book on limit. While it says that it is a book on limit, many people use its ideas out of context in NL. Some of the ideas can be adapted, but some require substantial revisions, or simply don't apply.

GSIH talks about both limit and NL. It does have a short stack strategy which might win in a live game with a $2 big blind. An online game with a $2 big blind will tend to be much tougher. Live games with a $2 big blind are similar to online games with a big blind of $0.05-$0.25. While a good short stack strategy can win in an online NL $200 game, and much higher, that's not what the simple short stack strategy in GSIH was designed to do.

When you increase your stack size to be over 30 BB instead of only 20-25BB, you have changed the risk versus reward ratio of using your whole stack to try to steal the blinds, and quite a few other decisions. Attacking the blinds is still worth it, but you need to use different methods. If you don't know how to adjust your game, you should either leave when you go over 30 big blinds, or accept that you are paying for a learning experience.

[ QUOTE ]

I just about lost my head over this one, tilted instantly, how could someone call a preflop 3x raise with 10 friggin 6 offsuit?

[/ QUOTE ]
It was a bad play, but perhaps not as bad as it looks to you at this point. Note that he got most of his money in after he hit hit two pair. However, I don't think a detailed discussion of this particular hand would help much.

Even if you have $10k to burn, if you want to be a winning player, I recommend moving down to much lower stakes games, NL $25 at highest. Crush these games and know why you win, then move up slowly while preserving the feeling of winning.

[ QUOTE ]

So I stayed on after that and continued to lose my entire bankroll.


[/ QUOTE ]
Don't do that. If a hand upsets you, quit for the day, and come back composed the next day. Someone with the skills to win can easily be a big loser if he goes berserk when he loses a pot.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pzhon I agree and disagree, is that possible?

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course! This situation has many aspects.

[ QUOTE ]
if you are trying to make a deposit and build a roll from that, practice good BR management, and move up sitting with half your roll is not a good idea.

I would imagine a lot of us built our roll from meager beginnings and many of us did not practice good management of those funds and we are still ok. But over time we have learned how to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but the OP just isn't at the point where he can start building a bankroll. You can't practice bankroll management while playing a -EV game like roulette, at least, not in the sense that advantage gamblers use the term. You have to find an advantage first.

I took $5 from a royal flush jackpot on a play money table and ground it into about $600 in 6 weeks, and $10k in a few months while learning to play poker. This didn't take a huge amount of luck. It took playing people who were worse than I was. Casual penny-ante players are terrible, and I moved up when I had learned enough to beat the next level, then the next, etc.

While I excercised sound but aggressive bankroll management along the way, the probability of going from $5 to $10,000 without being a winning player is less than 1/2000 regardless of the bankroll guidelines you follow. Becoming a winning player is the first and most important step toward building a bankroll.

The OP asked why he loses all of the time. The answer is not bankroll mismanagement. Although I don't recommend playing with half of your bankroll at risk in NL, the risk of ruin is not as high as many people expect. If you deposit 2 buy-ins in a game where you win 8 big blinds/100 with a standard deviation of 80 big blinds/100, then your risk of ruin is about 61%. If you deposit the same amount while losing, your risk of ruin is 100%. After the OP has lost this gamble a few dozen times, did he miss that 39% dozens of times in a row, or is he a losing player? The right way to bet is that he is not yet a winning player.

By the way, while big pots lost are memorable, many players lose due to poor play in the much more common small pots, and studying the big pots like the one the OP mentioned won't fix this problem.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

Risk of ruin calculations assume that you don't move up or down. If you move up constantly like the OP (and never down), your risk of ruin is much higher than the calculation says.

The point is good but don't overestimate the chance of a winning player's bankroll surviving such lunacy.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

You are losing because you are playing at a level where the other players are better than you are.

$1/2 and $2/4 online is TOUGH.

If you can't beat micro limits, you are not going to beat these limits. Move down, prove you can beat the micros, then work your way up once you've proved you can beat a certain limit.

Yes, micro stake players will suck out and play weird hands, but their poor play is to your advantage.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Risk of ruin calculations assume that you don't move up or down. If you move up constantly like the OP (and never down), your risk of ruin is much higher than the calculation says.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. I hadn't paid enough attention to the OP's move from NL $200 to NL $400.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

havn't read all the posts so forgive me if i am repeating but if this......"Im so pissed right now, I should just kill myself I think." ever enters your mind while losing at poker you shouldn't be playing. Not just becuase it is obviousuly a scary statement but it screams "I don't have the emotional control to ever be a good player." Most people that win (and thats not me by the way)will tell you stories about great technical or knowledgable players who lose becuase they can't control their emotions, or they get drunk or do coke, etc. and the "t" word......you can even see this with world class players.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most people that win (and thats not me by the way)will tell you stories about great technical or knowledgable players who lose becuase they can't control their emotions, or they get drunk or do coke, etc. and the "t" word......you can even see this with world class players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike "The Mouth" Matusow is the first person that comes to my mind. Great player who goes on tilt way too much.

I think learning to control emotions is important. Tilt has no positive effect on your game. I've learned to quit when I get mad. Or if I'm playing live, I'll play tighter so I can have a few extra hands to regroup. Learning the technical aspect of the game is most important. But don't under-estimate the importance of self control.

Re: Can someone please help me explain why I lose all the time?
 

Best advice for you would be to play at lower stakes as a lot of posters have suggested, and my suggestion would be for you to buy and read Your worst poker ennemy by Dr'Al, it's REALLY worth it if you have emotional problems at the table.