Easy call?
 

£15 £3500 added. Standard is bad but no reads on villain.



Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $150/$300
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $1460
UTG+1: $10010
Hero: $12195
MP2: $2605
MP3: $3342
CO: $2990
Button: $7746
SB: $11260
BB: $4530

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $300 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $450)</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1200</font>, 4 folds, SB calls $1050 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $1950)</font>, 2 folds.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($3000, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2000</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises all-in $10060</font>, Hero?

Re: Easy call?
 

Wow, thats really something, isn't it.

I hate to be a master of the obvious, but theres just nothing here except a QQ KK that smooths from the blind, check raises knowing your going to bet your AK, and he I would bet is hoping that your going to call it.

He has to know that many players cant let go of AK here, so I really dont think this can be air... Against someone I have some history with I might make a call here, but this... bleh. Maybe its Ace king and were chopping. I really dont think any underpair or AJ/AT can play this way, your just too likely to be calling with AK/AQ/KQ... sigh

We have a stack, Im fine with a fold here.

Re: Easy call?
 

I'd probably snap call but it's very possible you're behind here. Limps UTG+1 then flats your raise and CRAI in the flop. You've hit TPTK here so what is he shoving on you with? KQs? J10s? 44? QQ? Besides the J10(which isn't very likely), what is he doing this with that we are ahead of?

Re: Easy call?
 

Reg,

Does AK,KQ,KJ and JT seem like a reasonable range?

Jarid

Re: Easy call?
 

If he puts us on AK as 4 card is saying I think this is about the worst way he can play his hand because this big shove leaves us the opportunity to fold. If he has a hand that is crushing us we are drawing very slim and I think our opponent played the hand very very poorly. That being said I think we are ahead enough here to justify a call. I think crypto does not have antes at any level (?) which might just be a reason to fold and try and find a spot where we have the pot control for our entire stack.

Re: Easy call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reg,

Does AK,KQ,KJ and JT seem like a reasonable range?

Jarid

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an unknown in added prizepool on Crypto. His range is AK, AA, QQ, KK, KQ, 44, JT and then there'll sometimes be total nonsense more than you could possibly believe. How often does this have to be nonsense to make this a call?

Re: Easy call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reg,

Does AK,KQ,KJ and JT seem like a reasonable range?

Jarid

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an unknown in added prizepool on Crypto. His range is AK, AA, QQ, KK, KQ, 44, JT and then there'll sometimes be total nonsense more than you could possibly believe. How often does this have to be nonsense to make this a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once.

Re: Easy call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
£15 £3500 added. Standard is bad but no reads on villain.



Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $150/$300
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $1460
UTG+1: $10010
Hero: $12195
MP2: $2605
MP3: $3342
CO: $2990
Button: $7746
SB: $11260
BB: $4530

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $300 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $450)</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1200</font>, 4 folds, SB calls $1050 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $1950)</font>, 2 folds.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($3000, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2000</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises all-in $10060</font>, Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that (without a read on SB) that this is an 'easy call.' I know that you're saying that the defalut assumpition with respect to the skill level of the avg player in this tourney is bad...but the question is how bad?

Obv, calling OOP with 44 here is pretty bad IMO, as is calling w JTs;KQ. I don't hate calling with KQs, but not against a strong player. Calling with QQ is interesting (i'd usually RR it OOP tho.) AA and KK are in his range too.

Postflop, why would he play the hands that have u killed (KK;QQ;44) so fast on this flop? You've only got about 1/4 of your stack invested...by raising a limper and c-betting. So far, this has not been a huge show of strength. He'd have to really suck to assume that you're really strong here and c/r AI with a set. I'd expect a min-c/r from a player that flatcalls pre w QQ-AA. IMO, he's more likely to play KQ fast, along with JT/air. If u had c-bet 1500, or if he reads your 2/3 pot bet as weak...his range could widen to include 77-TT. In my experience, donks will c/call down w AQ here. His weird line here makes it tough to figure out what part of his range he plays like this. Without a read, i think this is a fold, although i wouldn't feel very good about it...

Re: Easy call?
 

this is so [censored].

Barry

Re: Easy call?
 

Meh his line is a strong one but even so at this level the smooth call preflop doesn't mean too much, and as such I'm not folding TPTK with these stack:pot sizes on flop

Re: Easy call?
 

Ok I def instacall, you are right this isn't the best board and action for TP/TK but they can easily have many hands you beat and have to win your 2 to 1 favorite vs his J10 etc.

If you aren't instacalling his shove and getting it in on this flop then check the flop. I don't mind a flop check in a usually wa/rarelybehind type of hand. You aren't afraid of that many turn cards and all but a 9 give you a few more outs to an even stronger hand etc.

he def can showup with AQ QJ K10 etc esp if you said standard players are bad here. Don't bet this flop with this hand if you plan on folding the flop or any point really unless board runs out J9 or 109 etc

Re: Easy call?
 

Not an easy call; in fact a very nasty call. Even the biggest, weirdest donks, don't open shove AQ, Q10, the garbage etc. They usually will call all ins with such junk, but never checkrepop.

The range here is J10(unlikely), sets, and KQ. You are a majority of the time doing yourself a favor by folding this against even moderately TAG players. Obviously, if the donk got there by pushing previously with absolute trash, then call. Since no real reads were attached, and I assume you would notice if he made all his chips by checkraising all in to bluff on the flop, this is a fold.

Re: Easy call?
 

Shaun's right in that I shouldn't bet this board if I'm not calling a raise. Well, I think he's right which is why I called. Villain hadn't been at the table long. On Stars, I'd probably check this flop sometimes but I don't think villain is folding much he's flatted here so I'm happy betting.

To be honest, I assumed villain has JT, KQ, AA or AQ when he shoved. But, no, it's 44.

Re: Easy call?
 

You can bet the board if you're not calling a raise, there are hands that will try to shutdown call you or float; his eagerness to get it in so fast is the real red flag.

Re: Easy call?
 

FWIW, I got this stack betting three streets OOP from UTG on an T high flop and calling a river checkraise to beat 99 with AA.

My other Crypto bustout of the evening was reraising pre with AA, getting flatted from SB, who put in 1/5 of his chips, flopping A56, checking behind and then calling a checkraise push on a Q turn. Guy had KTo and rivered the straight.

So this comes down to how often villain is a moron. There are a lot of them out there. Obviously, I can fold here if I think villain can play poker.

Re: Easy call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I got this stack betting three streets OOP from UTG on an T high flop and calling a river checkraise to beat 99 with AA.

My other Crypto bustout of the evening was reraising pre with AA, getting flatted from SB, who put in 1/5 of his chips, flopping A56, checking behind and then calling a checkraise push on a Q turn. Guy had KTo and rivered the straight.

So this comes down to how often villain is a moron. There are a lot of them out there. Obviously, I can fold here if I think villain can play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your best case scenario is JT and your worst case scenario is everything else, then I think you can find a fold here. I know that's kinduv a gorilla logical analysis, but when you bet 2000 here, you're betting because you want action out of QJ /AQ/KJ, preferably a call with a plan for a sexy trap on the turn/river (which, incidentally, is why I feel a check here isn't all that bad). Once there is a push, it changes everything. Throw QJ and AQ out of the window, KJ can't be that [censored] excited (I think KJ minraises here, not pushes into 5000). So, folding is fine here if you have the stomach for it.

Barry

Re: Easy call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't instacalling his shove and getting it in on this flop then check the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shaun (and all)... can we discuss this concept a bit? I think this is an area I'd like to understand better because I think it's a big leak for me.

My problem lies in differentiating between the situations where this concept applies and where leading out may be appropriate even if you're planning to fold to a push. I could see making a $2k c-bet here with a hand like TT and folding to resistance.

And against bad players (which is what I'm used to since I generally play $8 - $12 tourneys), I'd be leading this flop for value and expect calls from mid pairs, AQ, Kx, JT, and often even A-high with no part of the board. So I could see it being profitable over time to lead out this flop even if I'm folding to a push.

So I'd appreciate it if you could offer some guidelines for when the concept of not-leading-when-you're-not-gonna-call-a-push applies vs when it's ok to bet/fold. Buyin considerations? Position? Stack sizes? What to look for in flop texture? etc...

Thanks!

Matt

Re: Easy call?
 

Good question. For me, checking here might be good agaisnt good players to whom MP pf rr is hands that have hit this flop so hard that they really have to bail with AQ, JJ etc. So the value is in checking, most of the time. Also, when their SB flatting range is kind of defined as way ahead or way behind on this flop.

Against morons, I think you can expect a far wider range to call and then to payoff so betting is much better.

I actually think I could and should have folded here to the push. But, for me anyway, it's a question of moron frequency. He should never be value-betting a worse hand, nor should he ever have JT and thus be semi-bluffing. However, both are somewhat possible. And then there is just a certain amount of total nonsense. It's really hard to judge how much and how often. He actually hesitated for a moment, which for me, is a tell that he has a hand. I think people who insta CRAI here are more often FOS because they aren't stopping to consider what we've bet, what odds we're laying etc. They've got a plan and they're sticking to it.

Re: Easy call?
 

thanks Reg... So safe to say that the decision between checking and leading here basically comes down to your expectation of villain's ability (i.e., if he's good a check is better since it's more likely to be a wa/wb situation, but if he's bad then lead for value since you're more likely to get paid off by worse hands)?

Man, I hate basing decisions solely on expectation of an unknown opponents' ability. Regardless, I agree with what you're saying. And yeah, based on this, I do think that if you lead the flop here you have to be doing it with the expectation of moronity and therefore with the intention of calling the push.

Tough hand.

Re: Easy call?
 

I think this is a pretty easy call once you bet the flop. That said, I don't mind checking here. This is pretty much WA/WB but I think villain pushes plenty of worse hands. I think if he shows up with KQ here you're going to get him in the long run. That said, I guess he could have AA-QQ but if that's the case I think the whole hand is kind of a cooler and he probably would have just busted you anyway if he would have rr'ed preflop. I don't think you should overthink this one too much, I'd just bet/call the flop.

Re: Easy call?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I def instacall, you are right this isn't the best board and action for TP/TK but they can easily have many hands you beat and have to win your 2 to 1 favorite vs his J10 etc.

If you aren't instacalling his shove and getting it in on this flop then check the flop. I don't mind a flop check in a usually wa/rarelybehind type of hand. You aren't afraid of that many turn cards and all but a 9 give you a few more outs to an even stronger hand etc.

he def can showup with AQ QJ K10 etc esp if you said standard players are bad here. Don't bet this flop with this hand if you plan on folding the flop or any point really unless board runs out J9 or 109 etc

[/ QUOTE ]

I was about to post my own reply, but this says it all.

Re: Easy call?
 

Ewww...

Check the flop if you're contemplating a fold, but I'm more likely checking KJ here while playing AK like AA here- for stacks.