5NL HUSNG paired board
 

Full Tilt Poker, $5 + $0.25 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 20/40 Blinds, 2 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): 1,465
BB: 1,535

Pre-Flop: (60) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
Hero calls 20, BB checks

Flop: (80) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets 80</font>, BB calls 80

Turn: (240) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets 240</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to 1,415 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: 720 Pot
BB mucked and WON 720 (+360 NET)

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

i'd raise it pf

check this flop, as played turn bet is too thin i think, good fold to the shove

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

what does thin mean? i mean i bet the pot? should i have bet more than the pot?

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

sorry, i meant you shouldn't have bet all together, certainly not pot anyway.

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

Raise preflop.

I'm surprised that you're suggesting checking the flop, Unknown Soldier. It seems to me our hand is pretty vulnerable and that we need to bet here. I'd be interested in hearing why you'd want to check that flop.

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be interested in hearing why you'd want to check that flop.

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Telling somebody to check that flop in position seems like pretty bad advice on the surface, so I'd be interested in hearing the rationale as well.

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

think of the hands that continues - draws/Ts/9s that range has v. good equity against us since our kicker isn't great(bet if he'll call with like A high though). If you wait until the turen our equity vs that range improves. Not only that, but it's a nice way to see a cheap showdown. if we bet the flop and get called i don't think we can profitably bet the turn, that allows our opponent to take it away from us on the river (assuming we don't know his bluffing frequencies and can't profitably call). however by checking the flop, then betting the turn, the action often goes check-bet-call(or fold) then our opponent checks to us on the river. We have got to showdown with our marginal hand and have got money in with better equity against his range.



if the board was T94 then i'd bet because our hand has more value on the flop. Hopefully that makes some sort of sense.

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

Tnixon, interesting you mentioned position because we should be more inclined to bet oop then ip

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

Hmm. I guess that makes sense.

Having a pair on a paired board just doesn't seem all that marginal to me heads up though. Then again, I get called a lot by ace-high here as well.

Do you play on stars by chance?

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I bet this flop when I've hit a piece, because I also bet it a huge percentage of the time when I haven't.

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

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Tnixon, interesting you mentioned position because we should be more inclined to bet oop then ip

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Not sure I understand that, either, since pretty much everything I've seen here would indicate that being oop is where you really don't want to be building a pot.

In position, I'm pretty sure I have the best hand, and I don't want overcards or better draws to get a free card.

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

nah ongame, im not really a sng player, just messing around with them for a while. i play cash games mostly.


if you get called with a wide range on this board then betting is fine


although something like 22 on a 7c5c4h is a definite check

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tnixon, interesting you mentioned position because we should be more inclined to bet oop then ip

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understand that, either, since pretty much everything I've seen here would indicate that being oop is where you really don't want to be building a pot.

In position, I'm pretty sure I have the best hand, and I don't want overcards or better draws to get a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]


all about protecting your equity, you have alot less control over the pot when you are oop, so it's usually best just to be the aggressor and bet. If they fold 2 overcards that's not a bad result either (they have like 27% equity vs you), however ip you can control the pot alot easier.

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

[ QUOTE ]



all about protecting your equity, you have alot less control over the pot when you are oop, so it's usually best just to be the aggressor and bet. If they fold 2 overcards that's not a bad result either (they have like 27% equity vs you), however ip you can control the pot alot easier.

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I agree, when oop on a hand like this it's hard to have much of an idea where you're at if you check the flop, if they call a cbet you can at least assign them a range, if you check and they bet you really have no idea.

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

yeah def raise preflop, but if you are going to limp, overbetting the pot on the flop seems damned counterproductive; every hand you want to protect against folds to a bet of 60, and betting 80 gets value from roughly no worse hands.

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

[ QUOTE ]
i play cash games mostly.

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I think this is where our big difference is then, but please feel free to point out any flaws in my logic:

I know that *in theory*, HUSNG play is supposed to be the same as cash play at similar blinds, but nobody plays them that way.

Especially not at full tilt, and most especially not for $5.

It's *soo* easy to get called on a paired board by hands that are drawing to 3 outs, that I bet it every time I hit, and usually put 2 barrels here if I miss.

I also don't think the bet on the turn is nearly as thin as you do, although pot is definitely overkill. 1/2 pot gets the same job done.

If you bet the flop and check the turn, you're almost guaranteed to have to make a very tough decision on the river, because there are three types of boards that every blufftard just *loves* to throw chips at: 4-straight boards, 4-flush boards, and paired flops.

If you check the flop, I think you lose way too much value from people who will call up to pot with 5 or fewer outs, and might even call a second barrel with ace high (kings and queens will usually fold to the second barrel). If you wait til the turn, you get extra bluffy action (which is really hard to take with this hand), and you also lose a lot of the nothing hands that might peel one off on the flop just for the hell of it.

So, I almost always bet both flop and turn here. Smaller than what the OP does (2/3 flop and 1/2 turn), and folding to the checkraise is obvious, of course, but if villain just calls the turn, I'm almost always going to throw a bet on the river, too.

You're behind a fair number of hands, but there are so many more that you're ahead of that will call all three streets (yes, I routinely get called down by pocket 2s in this situation), that I personally think checking the flop is really bad.

In trying to extract max value out of the typical "any pair is good to take to showdown, and ace high is usually good too" villain, though, I'm *really* bad at exercising pot control, which is probably why I get omgwtfpwned every time I try cash.

Oh yeah, and *DEFINITELY* raise preflop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

You know what, though...

I also bet a ten here (and yes, I realize that if you combine it all, that means I almost always bet a paired flop, which is actually pretty close to the truth), for all the same reasons that I bet a 9. So depending on the type of opponent I'm playing, I'm either getting plenty of value when I flop trips, or I'm getting away with a lot of buys when the flop pairs.

I dunno. Most days I'm pretty sure that pot control is one of the major reasons that my winrate hangs around 56-57 instead of going higher, but every time I flop top pair, and get 2/3 pot calls on all three streets from bottom pair, an underpair, or ace high no draw, it seems practically impossible to not bet.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

lol our hand is way ahead of a random hand. Bet. I prefer to bet more like 2/3 but if you like to pot it that's your choice. I also like to bet ~2/3 on the turn if I get called. I would probably check/fold river to a reasonable bet but I'm not sure. Not sure my turn and river play are the best but leading the flop is almost certainly correct without some kind of strong read (your opponent is a maniac that bets 100% of flops except when he flops huge).

Re: 5NL HUSNG paired board
 

fair points tnixon. if they call with a really wide range then betting the flop is good (i did say that i think). It does make a difference that we limped pf of course, which should make us more inclined to bet (opponent has a wider range)

a river bet is definitely too thin though



il add a disclaimer though - i never said betting was bad, but that checking might be better.