Your Wrong
 

To fight for Poker regulation only. Sports betting is also a skill despite what people believe. It's like comparing Beer vs Wine. There both alcohol. Make one legal and the other not doesn't make sense. This UIGEA thing is not about what is more of a skill than another - it is about our freedoms and rights as citizens of the US. If people want to gamble then let them gamble. Unite with the sports betting industry and and you will be 10x more powerful. The momentum has definetly changed back to us. Keep up the pressure. Just my thoughts.

Re: Your Wrong
 

No, you're wrong. Until you learn to write effectively, nobody will care what you have to say. Learn some grammar and proper spelling.

Re: Your Wrong
 

Beer and wine is not how politicians see poker/sports gambling. Fighting for poker is hard enough as it is, why throw in a losing battle into the mix. Although personally I think sports gambling should be legal, it would be a losing battle for us.

It is more strategy as I have no issues (as most here don't) personally with sports gambling.

How many cosponsers would Wexler's bill have if sports gambling was included? Close to zero.

Re: Your Wrong
 

While you may be correct on the personal freedoms issue, the reality is that sports betting has 10x the uphill battle that poker does. It would be unwise of poker to hitch together.

Poker and sports face vastly different political landscapes/minefields
 

Poker is NOT covered by the Wire Act.

While the Wire Act's prohibitions on sports betting businesses may be "wrong" to you and me, it is not necessary to try and overturn that to "legitimize" poker

If you were correct that "poker" would be 10x stronger by throwing in with "sports", that does not mean that its burden would not be 20x as large.

While the calculation is not that simple, poker may already have sufficient political weight to overcome its own political opposition. The added opposition, from folks like the NCAA/NFL/ESPN, which is a sure thing on "sports" issues, may be less involved in a poker-only fight. Similarly, the potential allies, such as skill-games providers, may be less inclined to battle for sports-tainted rights.

The smae argument, to a lesser degree, may be made about poker-only v casino games relative strengths.

Re: Poker and sports face vastly different political landscapes/minefi
 

I really cant see any way in which the PPA or us poker players can convince the NFL etc... to support legal sports betting. "Skill v. chance" has nothing to do with the opposition of these powerful enemies. Convince them yourselves that allowing you to bet on their games wont affect "the integrity of the sport" and THEN we can talk about being allies for personal rights.

Skallagrim

Re: Poker and sports face vastly different political landscapes/minefi
 

I would throw sports betting under the bus in a heartbeat. There is no way that you can tell me that sports are not fixed, especially after the Broncos/Bears game.

Re: Poker and sports face vastly different political landscapes/minefi
 

Well how would you feel if Antigua threw poker under the bus for sports betting? Considering it has done 10x more than anyone for remote gaming don't line up to hate. Its massively
more popular than poker by handle and most likely by participation. And the legalization arguments are much more rational.

Re: Poker and sports face vastly different political landscapes/minefi
 

Sports gambling = fixed games
Sports gambling is worse that casino gaming as sports has no way to audit to determine if the games are fixed.

Poker > sports gambling

Personally, I am about done with poker as the games are getting too hard for me to beat, so I really don't care. I have never beat sports gambling, though I have kept records of picks for years and I have only broken even. The window is closing on the PPA momentum to get legislation passed before the games dry up.

Re: Your Wrong
 

Didn't mean to offend anyone with my thoughts on this issue or grammer/spelling. Just makes sense to me that if Poker becomes legal online Sports Betting will soon follow and vice versa.

This nation is definetly headed backwards with this UIGEA legislation. The US is losing a very lucrative world wide market sector by not allowing our nations gaming businesses to offer online entertainment. We have lost an important freedom to play online and the US has created yet another handbook of new laws to police us.

Re: Your Wrong
 

Sports betting is the third rail politically.

Don't touch it!

Poker players should NEVER even mention sports betting in any way except to emphatically point out that we are very very different.

Tuff

Sorry, fight your own fight.

Re: Your Wrong
 

In general, ECB, I agree with you. Besides if the WTO grants Antiqua its requested IP sanctions then IMO the US will have to treat all internet gambling the same.
However, if litigation is needed to protect online gambling, then poker must separate from sports betting. The legal case for online poker under federal and many state laws is good. For online sports betting, the legal case under all jurisdictions is close to hopeless.

Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

I like Antigua, the beaches are extremely nice, the beer is swill, but the rum is top-grade.

However, you miss the point. Antigua will not throw poker under the bus because it cannot do so. For Antigua's online gaming sector, it is all or nothing.

Ironically, the real danger, although small, is that Antigua might yet throw online gambling under the WTO bus in favor of a really sweet tourism or financial services industry development commitment and jobs for Antiguans.

(Consider what a 3,000 person call center for VISA, MasterCard or someone similar would mean to Antiguans. Add to that the financial services industry profits from processing transactions. Considering also the legal leverage that the US has over VISA/Mastercard for processing coded gaming transaction, why think that it is not possible for DOJ to kill two birds with one stone ?)

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

I am damn glad you do not work for the Bush administration Milton. And I hope the US Trade Rep. does not read 2+2 forums.

Skallagrim

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

Only one flaw Milton, do you see a democratic congress approving such a deal that will send 3000 more American jobs overseas, no to mention that Antigua has a shaky banking foundation and is on the U. S. banking watch list?

Make that 2 flaws perhaps?

obg

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am damn glad you do not work for the Bush administration Milton. And I hope the US Trade Rep. does not read 2+2 forums.

Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

Antigua can't handle much more tourism. Its hard to legislate where people vacation. They are not nor will be a top tier OFC. MFN and some regional/bilateral deals would kill any kind of financial package in that area as well. Any deal can't give them different tariff treatment/market access than that they give other nations. MFN is a beautiful concept for us. Give preference to banks and insurance there, be assured the EU will bring a WTO case. Other than straight cash there is nothing the USTR can offer. Antigua is so small that the size of the gaming busiess it had/had can't be replicated in another industry for them.

They can however reach a deal over remote gaming. It may not be legal, but another country bringing a case would take years and years. So they could throw poker under the bus because legislators make funny deals when they don't understnad what they are negotiating over. The good news is
it wont effect FT or Stars if Antigua did. Small chance though that Antigua is anything but a huge success or failure.

For Visa/MC the issue is cost. Antigua doesn't have the labor or the low wages to make it profitable at all.

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

"Antigua can't handle much more tourism."

Sure it could. They have plenty of beaches and very little development of them. The major tourism constraint has been airline service and investment capital.

"Any deal can't give them different tariff treatment/market access than that they give other nations."

Sure it can. It would be a settlement of the WTO case. Also, FWIW, the Caribbean Basin Initiative expires soon.

"Antigua is so small that the size of the gaming busiess it had/had can't be replicated in another industry for them."

Huh ? Why couldn't that same workforce be put to work for other call centers, in other industries ? As for the rating of their banking system, most Canadian Banks have subsidiaries there. The remaining banks could be acquired by US-based concerns, given the right incentives.

As for MC/Visa cost analysis, I agree Antigua labor is both expensive and not reliable. However, it is English speaking and can point to call cener success for the online gaming industry. Also consider what VISA/MC and say BofA liability is for processing all those credit card transactions over the years for online gaming ? Aiding and abetting anyone ???

The potential is there for a deal, if the parties are serious and online gaming is expendible in the eyes of Antigua.

I am not saying that deep-sixing online gaming in Antigua WILL happen, and think it will not, but it is odd to insist it cannot happen.

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

Well....sure Antigua could throw poker under the bus in a settlement, but that's not their plan. I can see a map for sports over poker.

Antiguan banks are NOT on any watch list.

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

Antigua is, as a Tax Haven Country.

See:(Page 35)
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/coll...mics/Hines.pdf

This, in spite of the fact in 2001 A-B signed a Tax Exchange Agreement with the U. S. in 2001:
http://www.escapeartist.com/efam32/Barbuda.html

the latter should be highlighted as a tool A-B can and will use in properly regulating online wagering should it come to pass, I belive. This can only help and should be pointed out to members of congress, if this is still in effect.

obg

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

Being a tax haven does not mean they are on a watch list.

They used to be on a watch list, they worked very hard to get off of it and did. Today it's tougher to open a bank acount in Antigua than the US.

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Antigua can't handle much more tourism."

Sure it could. They have plenty of beaches and very little development of them. The major tourism constraint has been airline service and investment capital.

"Any deal can't give them different tariff treatment/market access than that they give other nations."

Sure it can. It would be a settlement of the WTO case. Also, FWIW, the Caribbean Basin Initiative expires soon.

"Antigua is so small that the size of the gaming busiess it had/had can't be replicated in another industry for them."

Huh ? Why couldn't that same workforce be put to work for other call centers, in other industries ? As for the rating of their banking system, most Canadian Banks have subsidiaries there. The remaining banks could be acquired by US-based concerns, given the right incentives.

As for MC/Visa cost analysis, I agree Antigua labor is both expensive and not reliable. However, it is English speaking and can point to call cener success for the online gaming industry. Also consider what VISA/MC and say BofA liability is for processing all those credit card transactions over the years for online gaming ? Aiding and abetting anyone ???

The potential is there for a deal, if the parties are serious and online gaming is expendible in the eyes of Antigua.

I am not saying that deep-sixing online gaming in Antigua WILL happen, and think it will not, but it is odd to insist it cannot happen.

[/ QUOTE ]


Let me put it this way. Settlement can't be achieved by violating the WTO. You cant give preference to Antigua over other countries in the financial sector. They can agree to open a sector, but not to antigua exclusively. Thats the basic premise of MFN, same status to all trading partners.
It could possibly happen as part of the recommittment deal , but I am pretty sure opening a part of your market in these deals means opening it to every trading partner. Thats what makes the WTO work for everyone.

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

This is a question, legis, not a statement.

So, if that theory / assertion is correst, then the negotiations ongoing with the E.U. to open up sectors will also apply to all trading partners too, correct?

I do hope this is true, it will give us a bigger hammer to help defeat the deal making since everyone will have the same access if any is granted to the E.U.

obg

Re: Antigua can look after its own interests, which may not be sports\'
 

I would think so. GATS is not entirely the same as the tariff schedule part of the WTO, but my understanding is that
MFN still applies. Read the language of how GATS was written, its each country agreeing during the last "round" to open up sectors to trade. You could open or exempt, but everyone pretty much had to agree with everyone else's level of openess or closedness. For instance, the EU opted out of cross-border gaming, not US gaming, but all gaming.
The entire premise of the WTO was to thwart bilateral honey deals that excluded the world from trade, though customs unions like the EU and NAFTA and Mercosur have thwarted it some. Im sure its rife with exceptions, but only ones already negotiated. Remember everyone has to be placated before the recommittments are finalized as well. The EU wants concessions in industries it has an absolute advantage in like legal services, so they could care less if Indian lawyers can hang signs in the US. The EU will still benefit the most.

Antigua's scope for negotiation for a "deal" would be not related to the recommitments, but in telling the dispute settlement body the US complied. Say they struck a deal where a trial period for just the companies in Antigua were allowed to operate 3 years to assess the situation. I don't see that though I think Antigua floated it before. Then, conceivably the US would be in compliance, case closed, no recommitment penalties. But, they can't say no gaming, Antigua can now sell direct home insurance to everyone in the US with no corporate tax. That would violate the entire idea of what the WTO is about.

Re: Your Wrong
 

my wrong?

Re: Your Wrong
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's like comparing Beer vs Wine. There both alcohol. Make one legal and the other not doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad legislative comparison

For most, sports betting is to poker like moonshine is to wine coolers.

Re: Your Wrong
 

http://cdn.last.fm/coverart/300x300/...-594581970.jpg

Re: Poker and sports face vastly different political landscapes/minefi
 

[ QUOTE ]
The window is closing on the PPA momentum to get legislation passed before the games dry up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

The question is how do we at least prop it open long enough for the PPA to gain traction?

If this were 1776 I'd call for a "convention".

Just to be fair geographically perhaps in St. Louis?

JP we could all meet at your house! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

You have an over sized West County McMansion don't you? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Perhaps a virtual one?

Let's try something!


D$D

Re: Poker and sports face vastly different political landscapes/minefi
 

Why are people so bummer on the games "drying up". The next day after poker is acknowledged legal online the money will flood online. Advertizing has barely started in the US. Look at the UK with athletes, bus stops, billboards, and everyday media abuzz with gambling ads. If Tuff insists on full disclosure I did meet with an ad exec of a small firm to discuss how to make money advertizing remote gaming if the day came, but my real objective was to [censored] her. I was not paid. Poker is still wildly untapped, mostly downstream though. The tables with blinds .10 and down and tourneys with buy ins under $5. The blinds from .25-$5 should be able to achieve pre-UIGEA status as well, almost instantly. Im not experienced or knowledgable at all of the NL1k and up crowd or green chip limit. I really doubt poker will decline this generation, unless the US has a major recession, or a new game to bet on emerges.
Granted, my earn rate and lifestyle are crimped considerably.

Re: Poker and sports face vastly different political landscapes/minefi
 

Sorry D$D, those days are in the past. I'm afraid my abode will not suffice for a meeting place. IMO your concern about games drying up is misplaced. I still find the games profitable. We have time, be patient.

Re: Poker On-line is dying!!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are people so bummer on the games "drying up".

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker IMO is still growing, on-line play is declining.

After the UIGEA I can find more "juicy" home games than ever before!

Tuff and I were just talking about this fact. He and I may not know nor agree on all the real reasons; sci-fi fears, scandals, deposit hurdles, withdraw problems, hand histories, bots, HUDs, grinders, multi-tabling, (let alone multi-tabling, datamining, computerized HUD using, semi-bot, "computerized sharks") and the like. Or even the relative weight to apply to the problem or solution.

It does seem pretty clear at least for your average recreational player that NO ONE given the high level of personal greed in the "poker community" is looking out for the "good of poker" let alone trying to limit the short term or long term damage to on-line play.



D$D

Re: Poker On-line is dying!!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are people so bummer on the games "drying up".

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker IMO is still growing, on-line play is declining.

After the UIGEA I can find more "juicy" home games than ever before!

Tuff and I were just talking about this fact. He and I may not know nor agree on all the real reasons; sci-fi fears, scandals, deposit hurdles, withdraw problems, hand histories, bots, HUDs, grinders, multi-tabling, (let alone multi-tabling, datamining, computerized HUD using, semi-bot, "computerized sharks") and the like. Or even the relative weight to apply to the problem or solution.

It does seem pretty clear at least for your average recreational player that NO ONE given the high level of personal greed in the "poker community" is looking out for the "good of poker" let alone trying to limit the short term or long term damage to on-line play.



D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

the mid to low limit games are still fine IMO , it was alot worse post uigea and early this year but its cleared up a bit and the games are still juicy (maybe not as much as the old party days) but they are still beatable for a decent amount by good players ...