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-   -   Dealing with a downswing... (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=549088)

Lefort 11-18-2007 04:54 PM

Dealing with a downswing...
 
Wrote another entry in my blog that I thought could be potentially interesting or helpful to some...

"Well November has continued to be dark and gloomy. I'm back to the exact same working online bankroll as I had when I started playing again in September. It's funny what results-based confidence can do to a person in this sick and twisted game. I had no problem playing NL$2000 in September, but lately I've been playing NL$600. That's the beauty (and ugliness) of poker. You play for the long-term results with blind faith that they will converge to good positive numbers. But a day of "playing" is only a sliver of your lifetime results, a trend that tends to be extremely volatile due to the strong effects of variance. So as poker players, we focus on making sound decisions on a hand-by-hand basis without the ability to comprehend the long-term results, until we reach the long-term. But technically, we never reach those results, until the last hand of poker you play. As stated earlier, it is a leap of faith that each poker player takes to assume they are a long-term winning player, and focus solely on the short-term decisions they must make. During a bad stretch of results, it is very easy for a player to begin questioning their blind faith and their potential to be profitable. This can lead to all kinds of conclusions, most bad, but some potentially good. I think this recent downswing has led me down the path to some positive consequences. I realized that I'd virtually spent the past year playing "lazy" poker. I was focusing and playing the game, but not with nearly as much concentration as I should have been giving. I had assumed that most situations were extremely clear-cut, and I was essentially playing sub-consciously with my mind-bank of poker knowledge.

So the other day I pledged to change two things about my game:

1) No more complaining. Every time I fired up a session the past few weeks, any incidence of bad luck early in the session put me into a "here we go again" mindframe. This leads to steam in the brain, creating a fog that inhibits the ability to reason and make good decisions. I would often show my "unlucky" hands to other players for any source of sympathy and with intentions of "blowing off steam". But all this really did was keep me in a continuous stage of unluckiness and consequently, hurt my game.

2) Take twice as much time to make any non-super-easy decision. Literally, atleast twice as many seconds. Multi-tabling 8 tables of poker for a year can lead to habits of what I've coined, "click-click-click" poker. I don't want to play sub-consciously any more. I want to think through every decision, even the ones that seem clear-cut. I don't just want to make the right plays, I want to also establish *why* they are the right plays.

I've had two sessions since making these vows, both at NL$600, 4-6 tabling. Each session has been eons better than any session I've had for a year. I was into the game and thinking through each individual situation. I knew exactly why I had an edge on my opponents as I played each table. There was no blind faith, I knew why I was better and why I will make the dollars in the long run.

Consistent with the theme of my Tiger-like re-working of my poker swing, I thought I'd post a couple hands where I potentially made bad decisions, and explain them so.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1707936 - Folded to me on the button with A6o and I make a standard raise. MiamiVice79, seemingly a good regular, calls in the BB. I flop top pair and this is usually a place to continuation bet, but MV likes to bluff-raise flops frequently and I thought this might be a good place to check back a top pair, and get "safer" value on later streets. The turn brings a K as well as a flush draw and potential straight draws, MV leads out, and I call. The river pairs the A giving me trips, with the K and J kickers playing. MV leads out and in a spot where the standard would be to call, I decide to raise it up. I think my hand looks fairly weak from his perspective after I check the flop and I thought he was capable of looking me up here with a weaker hand. I'm glad that I atleast had a thinking process and looked at multiple options instead of making the "snap call", but there just wasn't enough potential value in raising the river to counter the times I'm just bloating a pot I'm going to lose.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1707798 - This one I'm still unsure about and welcome comments. Me and RebuyK have been fairly active, enough for each of us to know the other person is a player. Note that we are 200 big blinds deep. I raise A8hh from MP and he calls behind me. I flop mid-pair on a J85 rainbow board and he calls my continuation bet. The turn is a big blank 2 of clubs keeping the board rainbow. I think the standard play here would be to check and call a bet, or possibly lead out again. But I opted to check-raise. Its an unorthodox play but my reasoning at the time was that he has better than one pair here almost never, and he's not going to want to continue with the hand with such deep stacks with only one pair as he must assume he will be facing a large river bet as well. The argument against my play is that I'm not necessarily representing a standard line with any hand and it might look suspicious. Again, I'm not really sure whether I like it or whether its bad. Feel free to comment."

http://lefort.livejournal.com

d2themfi 11-18-2007 05:11 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
nice post

MATT111 11-18-2007 05:13 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
Hand1 is a bluff imo.

KRANTZ 11-18-2007 05:15 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
nice read, brotha.

you might want to try coaching a cpl people to help with 2). when you're analyzing hand after hand and talking a lot of poker in an effort to help other people, it oddly translates to improving your own game. you find yourself more removed and detached and thinking about poker from both an intuitive and theoretical view during your own sessions, too.

Nielsio 11-18-2007 05:37 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
Very nice post.


I've said similar things lately:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12878826

Lucky 11-18-2007 05:49 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
I think a lot of people adhere to the peter principle in terms of adding tables; they add to the number at which they're inefficient.

ogdundar 11-18-2007 08:07 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
Very nice blogg! I've bookmarked it.

Comment on hand#2: I think your line is somewhat interesting because I agree with your thoughts. But I'd rather just lead the turn again or c/c because it looks so wierd. And when things don't make sense I often call down. Probably a leak but I think a lot of other players do too.

stackingboxes 11-18-2007 08:17 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
vnice post. Had similar exprience. but haven't started the rethinking poker process

Laetus 11-18-2007 08:23 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
Nice post! I'm actually in the same spot and try to re-think about my game.

fearless2k 11-18-2007 08:24 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
Love the post, im in the rethinking mode atm. activily seeking a coach, playing less tables.. etc etc [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] hope i find the magic formula soon [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

DJ Sensei 11-18-2007 09:10 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
that lefort is the bomb, son

TheWorstPlayer 11-18-2007 10:14 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
c/c is def better on hand 2 unless you're bluffing (which would be bad).

whorasaurus 11-18-2007 11:12 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
Great post, what is your plan if he calls turn in hand 2?

jfish 11-18-2007 11:16 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
if only i could read..

Lefort 11-19-2007 11:24 AM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Great post, what is your plan if he calls turn in hand 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure I was giving up.

AcTiOnJaCsOn 11-19-2007 11:27 AM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
good read lefort i think a lot of the stuff you said was true and its easy to play lazy poker when u run well or your on an upswing

Maulik 11-19-2007 11:29 AM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
Your attitutude toward poker is refreshing and your posts helpful, please keep them coming.

Bikini Wax 11-19-2007 11:54 AM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
I agree with most of the replies, good read.

DanielDayLewis 11-19-2007 12:17 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
I'm going to go back and read this whole thing tomorrow.

Lefort,

You make some of the most well thought out posts on this forum. I think if you have enough time to think about the hands you are playing you should easily be able to beat the vast majority of opponents. Please move up to nosebleeds ASAP so I don't have to play against you at 3/6-10/20.

Jay. 11-19-2007 12:17 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
I really like the no complaining goal. I've tried to have this in poker and life lately. The idea being that sometimes i can't control the path or situation i'm in all i can do is to try and make the best of that situation.

That could mean i've got a huge hand in a likely bad situation after running bad or something serious has just gone wrong in life. So rather than making a bad play to prove to myself the situation sucked or to just sit and be bitter about the life situation now i don't let myself complain about the situation and just think and do what i can to make the outcome as best i can.

Another attitude goal that i've taken that has helped me is to always do what is best for yourself in the long term regardless of current mood. This one was adopted from poker to put into day to day life situation. Simple examples would being to lazy to go the gym or being to afraid to do something.

Laetus 11-19-2007 01:01 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
I really like the no complaining goal. I've tried to have this in poker and life lately. The idea being that sometimes i can't control the path or situation i'm in all i can do is to try and make the best of that situation.

That could mean i've got a huge hand in a likely bad situation after running bad or something serious has just gone wrong in life. So rather than making a bad play to prove to myself the situation sucked or to just sit and be bitter about the life situation now i don't let myself complain about the situation and just think and do what i can to make the outcome as best i can.

Another attitude goal that i've taken that has helped me is to always do what is best for yourself in the long term regardless of current mood. This one was adopted from poker to put into day to day life situation. Simple examples would being to lazy to go the gym or being to afraid to do something.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's very true. Good post.

To bad it's good damn hard to follow guidelines. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

john kane 11-19-2007 01:05 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
do what is best for yourself in the long term regardless of current mood.

[/ QUOTE ]

good phrase, though so hard to stick to. whenever i get shitfaced i know the next day ill regret it, but i still do it.

traz 11-19-2007 01:06 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
I'm in the midst of a small downswing, and i find it helps if I take a bit of time to work on aspects of my life other than poker. Moreso, when I neglect the other areas of my life (going to the gym, eating healthy, personal relationships), I find that downswings start to occur and I get into a rut, where i just try and grind myself out of a downswing and focus on nothing else...but then I end up digging a deeper whole.

So basically, I'm working on making sure I keep a balanced life, and I think that alone helps me prevent and deal with downswings. I really believe there is a causation effect there.

JackAll 11-19-2007 01:21 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
I like the c/r in hand 2.
It's sweeeeeet *homer style drool*

ddubois 11-19-2007 01:43 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Its an unorthodox play but my reasoning at the time was that he has better than one pair here almost never

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. What do you think villain is doing with AJo/J8s-AJs/99-TT/sets on this flop and turn?

LucidDream 11-19-2007 01:48 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its an unorthodox play but my reasoning at the time was that he has better than one pair here almost never

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. What do you think villain is doing with AJo/J8s-AJs/99-TT/sets on this flop and turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

look at stack sizes, he doesnt have 2pr or sets here really and most hands he has are weak enough that he will probably fold them tho he may elect to call and force him to follow up on the river.

i think i like a little bigger c/r tho.

Lefort 11-19-2007 04:13 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
nice read, brotha.

you might want to try coaching a cpl people..

[/ QUOTE ]

Done and done.

http://lefort.livejournal.com
sean_lefort@hotmail.com

Inquire within.

JackAll 11-19-2007 04:54 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its an unorthodox play but my reasoning at the time was that he has better than one pair here almost never

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. What do you think villain is doing with AJo/J8s-AJs/99-TT/sets on this flop and turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

AJo/J8s-AJs/99-TT

Folding a very high number of these if he is a thinking player and OP doesn't have a maniac image. Folding out better hands is a big part of poker against thinking players, and this is a beautiful spot for it.

sets

He doesn't have JJ. There is only one combo of 88 left in the deck. That leaves 4 combo's of hands that are sets, which means if we can c/r the turn here and make him fold his overwhelming percent of top pair hands which are ahead of us, this is very +EV.

bigt439 11-19-2007 08:18 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
great post.

nutsflopper 11-19-2007 08:45 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
c/c is def better on hand 2 unless you're bluffing (which would be bad).

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure he was trying to bluff him off a JT type hand, might be a bad assumption tho...?

TheWorstPlayer 11-19-2007 09:04 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
that would be bad

Ship Ship McGipp 11-19-2007 10:06 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
once a month someone makes a post like this

those two hands look poor, in my opinion

DanielDayLewis 11-19-2007 11:06 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
I don't really mind hand 1 all that much. I'd just call but I think against vice you might get value from a K since he calls sorta loose if your line looks a bit weird. Problem is ur definately losing value frm AJ+ and QT and 77. So its -EV given his range.

I don't like hand 2. The only possible benefit is if you somehow got to showdown and can then take the same line with a winner and get paid.

JackAll 11-20-2007 10:08 AM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
that would be bad

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
once a month someone makes a post like this

those two hands look poor, in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]


I guess at 400nl there are 2 tpes of players - fairly standard tags, and monkeys.

And against standard tag's I thought hand 2 seems like a good spot to c/r in.

Maybe 600nl has some much better tags who can read souls or something. Otherwise can someone explain it, cuz I don't really take SHIPSHIP's and TheWorstPlayer's comments lightly.

Lefort 11-20-2007 01:10 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
It's a common theme that people don't like turning hands with showdown equity into bluffs on these boards... just let it be... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TheWorstPlayer 11-20-2007 02:02 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
For me it's more that someone who bets JT isn't folding to a c/r and someone who is folding to a c/r would just check it back on the turn. The vast majority of the time.

JackAll 11-20-2007 04:42 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's a common theme that people don't like turning hands with showdown equity into bluffs on these boards... just let it be... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that might be so for most of the monkeys on 2+2, but I would not call ShipShip or TWP monkeys.


[ QUOTE ]
For me it's more that someone who bets JT isn't folding to a c/r and someone who is folding to a c/r would just check it back on the turn. The vast majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think that even a thinking player on this type of board and this deep wouldn't be folding to a c/r here with a J?

And even if they will often check it back if we check, we miss an opportunity to push them off a better hand. Or is it that you think they have a lower 8X hand here a lot?

LucidDream 11-20-2007 04:44 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
For me it's more that someone who bets JT isn't folding to a c/r and someone who is folding to a c/r would just check it back on the turn. The vast majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i mean maybe and i understand what ur saying but i think alot of times they are just betting the turn w/ these hand w/ the intention of taking a free SD on the river...in that case they aren't going to be calling the c/r.

TheWorstPlayer 11-20-2007 06:14 PM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For me it's more that someone who bets JT isn't folding to a c/r and someone who is folding to a c/r would just check it back on the turn. The vast majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i mean maybe and i understand what ur saying but i think alot of times they are just betting the turn w/ these hand w/ the intention of taking a free SD on the river...in that case they aren't going to be calling the c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, there's some EV in the c/r. But compare it to a c/c line. C/c looks a lot better to me. If you had no showdown value whatsoever, maybe the bluff is +EV (I personally doubt it, but okay you could at least argue for it). But you have a decent pair with the best kicker. You have a lot of equity against your opponent's range. Why would you rely on your bluff equity (which, again, I doubt is very high) instead of your considerable showdown value?

JackAll 11-21-2007 02:40 AM

Re: Dealing with a downswing...
 
I think on that board, he has 8x, Jx, 99, TT a lot (and 55 occasionbally and 67/9T also)

Against 8x, Jx, 99, TT we are behind a bunch of hands because we have one of the 8's so there is more Jx hands than 8x hands. When we throw in 99/TT we are behind a lot more than we are ahead of. Also, I think a lot of people will bet with a big range of the hands we beat after we check the turn including a most Jx hands as well as 99/TT - all wanting to not give your perceived AK a free card. That is why I think a c/r is good here - because we are actually folding out a lot of hands that we do beat.

Obv against someone who never folds, this sux, but I think OP said he was a thinking player.


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