Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

Can I find a fold here?

Villain is normally a donator to the 40-80 and 80-160 games at the Borgata. However, yesterday he seemed to be playing well.

Usually, Villain is a standard issue loose passive limit player, playing too many hands and calling down too much. He usually does not get out of line postflop, though he does have a tendency to randomly donk scare cards. I've never seen him bluff raise.

Yesterday, Villain played a tight game. At one point, he folded on the button to a UTG raise and accidentally exposed the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], a hand that he would usually play for a raise. Throughout the session, I never saw him show down a marginal hand. I don't know if he wasn't in his usual gambling mood or if he read a book on poker since the last time I saw him.

Villain opens from UTG+1, I 3-bet to his immediate left with red AA, and we see the flop heads-up.

Flop is Q96 rainbow. Villain checks, I bet, Villain check/raises, I call planning to raise the turn.

Turn 9, don't remember the suit. Villain checks, I bet, Villain check/raises me again.

I'm lost. Villain will cap QQ-AA preflop. Q9 is a hand that he would play when in 'gambling' mode. 99 is possible but unlikely. Is 66 a UTG raise for someone who is normally passive but seems to be playing better today? Could he possibly be going bonkers with AQ or KQ?

I hate folding Aces heads-up, but I can't imagine what I am beating here.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

call. aq or more likely kk is probably what he has. horrible fold.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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call. aq or more likely kk is probably what he has. horrible fold.

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I can say with almost 100% certainty that he would cap KK preflop. This guy is VERY passive postflop, though, which is why I was almost certain that my AA was no good. I did call, though, since I don't know how to fold.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

folding here isnt good.

people do dumb stuff way too often.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

I think you just gotta call down and take your lumps if he has you beat. If nothing else, it will give you insight into his seemingly new style of play. Look at the payoff as an investment, which has the additional advantage of winning money when your AA is still good (or sucks out on the river).

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

The primary reason I can't fold here is because our hand is under represented since we didn't 3 bet the flop. Naturally everything live is read dependent but generally I can't fold under represented hands.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

guy sounds random enough that folding here would be something you should do just about never.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

Folding is out of the question. Given your description of villain's preflop play this session, the turn 9 is a very safe card for you. Having ellimnated QQ from his range, you are a huge favorite to have the best hand. If you think he can play AQ this way, and right now that seems very reasonable, then you should 3-bet.

Note that even if you add 66 AND Q9s to his range, you are still a 55% favorite to have the best hand. And that's giving no weight to him playing KQ or a bluff / semi-bluff this way.

Folding is out... it's much closer to a 3-bet. In fact, 3-betting is exactly what you should do unless you are able to strongly discount AQ.

good luck.
Eric

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

Hey drew...i was in this game with you. Having played with villian several times, i was sure you were behind. Like you said, he is extremely passive postflop. IMO under no circumstances would he have CR the turn with less than trips. I think the advice given thus far is appropriate for most players, but my read was specific to this one.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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Folding is out of the question. Given your description of villain's preflop play this session, the turn 9 is a very safe card for you. Having ellimnated QQ from his range, you are a huge favorite to have the best hand. If you think he can play AQ this way, and right now that seems very reasonable, then you should 3-bet.

Note that even if you add 66 AND Q9s to his range, you are still a 55% favorite to have the best hand. And that's giving no weight to him playing KQ or a bluff / semi-bluff this way.

Folding is out... it's much closer to a 3-bet. In fact, 3-betting is exactly what you should do unless you are able to strongly discount AQ.

good luck.
Eric

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I think 3betting this turn is quite bad.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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Hey drew...i was in this game with you. Having played with villian several times, i was sure you were behind. Like you said, he is extremely passive postflop. IMO under no circumstances would he have CR the turn with less than trips. I think the advice given thus far is appropriate for most players, but my read was specific to this one.

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Heh...good game that was. What seat were you in?

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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Folding is out... it's much closer to a 3-bet. In fact, 3-betting is exactly what you should do unless you are able to strongly discount AQ.


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Hey Eric,

I've always appreciated your feedback. It's good to know that everyone advocates calling down. I did call down, since I forgot how to fold years ago.

Three-betting may be a decent line against a standard LAGgy 80-160 player, but three-betting the specific Villain in question is chip spewery.

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Note that even if you add 66 AND Q9s to his range, you are still a 55% favorite to have the best hand. And that's giving no weight to him playing KQ or a bluff / semi-bluff this way.


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In your equity calculation, you forgot to include the fact that I'm a retarded luck sack, and that I routinely catch runner runner trips to crack bottom set. River 9...6s full of 9s becomes 9s full of 6s! I run so good it's sick. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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I think 3betting this turn is quite bad.

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You don't exactly give me much to work with here, do you? I'll take a crack though.

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elindauer: 3-betting is exactly what you should do unless you are able to strongly discount AQ.


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Do you disagree with this? This strikes as a purely logical statement, provable mathematically.

If you agree, then how are you discounting AQ so strongly? I read the OP as "I thought I knew this guy, but he's playing really differently right now than normal, I'm not sure what to do". Against that player, shouldn't we play more in the "default" way, waiting to gather information about the villain's tendencies?

Or do you think that even against a tough player, 3-betting AA here would be bad? It seems to me that AQ will be squarely in the range of a solid player at this point.

thanks,
Eric

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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...or if he read a book on poker since the last time I saw him.


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This line, along with you eliminating QQ+ from his range because of the no-cap preflop, made me wonder if possibly JTs or T9s could be in his range. That would give him either an open-ender with the former or a couple of backdoor straight draws with the latter, and probably a backdoor flush draw on this flop.

With JTs, if the second 9 happened to give him four to his suit, he *might* still be able to find a CR on the turn, though I would think the CR here would weigh it heavily toward T9s or 66.

I don't know this specific opponent, but I wonder if someone who fits his description could play this way.

--dan

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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If you agree, then how are you discounting AQ so strongly? I read the OP as "I thought I knew this guy, but he's playing really differently right now than normal, I'm not sure what to do". Against that player, shouldn't we play more in the "default" way, waiting to gather information about the villain's tendencies?

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That sums up my read on how Villain was playing at the moment fairly accurately.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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I think 3betting this turn is quite bad.

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You don't exactly give me much to work with here, do you? I'll take a crack though.

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elindauer: 3-betting is exactly what you should do unless you are able to strongly discount AQ.


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Do you disagree with this? This strikes as a purely logical statement, provable mathematically.

If you agree, then how are you discounting AQ so strongly? I read the OP as "I thought I knew this guy, but he's playing really differently right now than normal, I'm not sure what to do". Against that player, shouldn't we play more in the "default" way, waiting to gather information about the villain's tendencies?

Or do you think that even against a tough player, 3-betting AA here would be bad? It seems to me that AQ will be squarely in the range of a solid player at this point.

thanks,
Eric

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Is a solid player paying off a turn 3bet and a river bet with AQ here?

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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Is a solid player paying off a turn 3bet and a river bet with AQ here?

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I imagine that it would be much easier for a loose player to alter his preflop game, and get tricky postflop then it would be for him to start laying down TPTK. After all, you aren't going to find any books saying you should laydown AQ to a turn 3-bet, but they all say to fold 66 to a UTG raise.

In my mind, it's pretty clear that you can 3-bet aces here and not be exploited (in a game theory sense... if you don't 3-bet aces, what is your 3-bet range?). Just calling them seems to be an attempt to take advantage of this particular opponent. I don't see the part of the player description that lets us do this though... I read the villain description as "villain probably can't make big laydowns, he likely is trying to play well preflop, and I'm not sure how tricky he's playing at the moment". Seems like the "standard" play of 3-betting is the way to go.

It seems like you are saying you wouldn't 3-bet a tough player though... so what hand do you 3-bet a solid player with here? What is your range when you bet the turn? What hands do you fold? I know this is a lot to ask, but I think you'll find that this kind of analysis will prove that just calling aces by default will make it very hard to play our range.

my 2 cents.
eric

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

Nice suckout fish cakes ! I saw this hand vs Ricky Williams

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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call. aq or more likely kk is probably what he has. horrible fold.

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Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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Nice suckout fish cakes ! I saw this hand vs Ricky Williams

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Shhh...His knees were shaking. He thought it was Lennox Lewis .

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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Nice suckout fish cakes ! I saw this hand vs Ricky Williams

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Shhh...His knees were shaking. He thought it was Lennox Lewis .

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roflmao Villain looks exactly like Ricky Williams.

Seriously, that 80 game is so good now with half of the decent players out in LA right now. I hope that they stay.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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Is a solid player paying off a turn 3bet and a river bet with AQ here?

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I imagine that it would be much easier for a loose player to alter his preflop game, and get tricky postflop then it would be for him to start laying down TPTK. After all, you aren't going to find any books saying you should laydown AQ to a turn 3-bet, but they all say to fold 66 to a UTG raise.

In my mind, it's pretty clear that you can 3-bet aces here and not be exploited (in a game theory sense... if you don't 3-bet aces, what is your 3-bet range?). Just calling them seems to be an attempt to take advantage of this particular opponent. I don't see the part of the player description that lets us do this though... I read the villain description as "villain probably can't make big laydowns, he likely is trying to play well preflop, and I'm not sure how tricky he's playing at the moment". Seems like the "standard" play of 3-betting is the way to go.

It seems like you are saying you wouldn't 3-bet a tough player though... so what hand do you 3-bet a solid player with here? What is your range when you bet the turn? What hands do you fold? I know this is a lot to ask, but I think you'll find that this kind of analysis will prove that just calling aces by default will make it very hard to play our range.

my 2 cents.
eric

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I wouldn't 3bet anyone other than a complete idiot here.

3betting a tough player here is only going to get him to (a) fold nothing or a worse hand or (b) allow him to put you in an awful spot by 4betting with a worse hand, knowing that you likely do not have a 9 and thus cannot continue unless you have Qs full or all the 9s.

The only way 3betting can be correct here is if (a) we know this guy has exactly AQ and (b) he is bad enough to pay off with it. IMO, we aren't sure what this guy is up to, so we gotta just call down.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

back to back check-raises are usually a very bad sign..i think you're behind here.

results?

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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back to back check-raises are usually a very bad sign..i think you're behind here.

results?

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upthread.

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

he spiked the case ace on the river and won aces over nines
to nines over aces. amiright?

Re: Borgata 80-160 AA hand - I get check/raised twice
 

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he spiked the case ace on the river and won aces over nines
to nines over aces. amiright?

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Close. Dude had 6's full and I caught a 3rd 9 on the river. He checked again and I had the balls to bet it. Egh. Not sure what I would have done if I had gotten 3-balled.