Bizarre river raise
 

(This is Commerce 20/40 if it matters)

A fairly loose-aggressive player opens in EP; I 3-bet in the hijack with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. A very strange player takes 3 to the face on the button. He's been playing incredibly aggressive preflop and then spazzy post-flop, which often means checking monsters and semi-bluff raising the turn. It's hard to put him on hands; I guess he's a thinking LAG with FPS. Blinds fold, EP calls the 3-bet.

Flop comes 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. EP checks, I bet, button calls, EP calls.

Turn brings 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. EP checks, I bet, both call.

River is the 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. EP checks, I bet, button raises, EP folds, and I... ?

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

This is a flush almost 100% of the time, correct? A set would have to put in a raise somewhere, right? And it's unlikely that he is going to call 3 with 93 73 or 53. Even if it's not a flush, I can't see him paying you off with less than a flush. Given that you have both the K and Q, I just call.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

Hard to believe he wouldn't raise w/ a set before the river, or a flush for that matter, and you beat most flushes.

I 3-bet this river.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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It's hard to put him on hands; I guess he's a thinking LAG with FPS.

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You can't fold, since he could be raising a smaller flush or trips. You can't raise, since you are probably a dog against hands that will call your raise or reraise. Therefore you call.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

I can't see doing anything buy calling here - this guy could easily have the nut flush or a boat. We need a good read to 3-bet, and we don't have one. Plus it's not that out of line for him to call twice with a strong hand, because he could have been trying to get overcalls from SB.

Is it wrong to want to just check the flop here?

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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Hard to believe he wouldn't raise w/ a set before the river, or a flush for that matter, and you beat most flushes.

I 3-bet this river.

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Then I guess you would also endorse calling 4 as well?

Garland

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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Is it wrong to want to just check the flop here?

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What for? Not only are we ahead of their PF ranges pretty often, but we flopped a flush draw and two overs. This doesn't seem like the spot to refuse making a continuation bet. Plus, if we check and there's a bet and raise into us, cold-calling turns our hand face up.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

Maybe it's a weakness of mine but when I've shown as much strength as it's possible to show and then I get raised I've got to have a pretty darn good reason to re-raise and I don't see that reason here so I just call.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

It's ridiculous to check this flop.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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Is it wrong to want to just check the flop here?

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What for? Not only are we ahead of their PF ranges pretty often, but we flopped a flush draw and two overs. This doesn't seem like the spot to refuse making a continuation bet. Plus, if we check and there's a bet and raise into us, cold-calling turns our hand face up.

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Betting/raising this flop is as automatic as they come.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

I would 3-bet.

I feel his most likely hand is a high pocket pair or A9 that is raising the river for value, banking that he's usually ahead and that on this scattered board you won't have a 3-betting hand ever. He doesn't put you on a flush because you 3-bet preflop which contraindicates suited cards in his mind.

I think he will usually pay you off with several hands less than a flush.

I'd call a four-bet because he is a spaz.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

You don't think he would ahve raises TPTK or the like earlier in this hand against 2 opponents on a draw heavy board? And he would have to be an absolute moron to pay off a river 3-bet with just one pair.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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Is it wrong to want to just check the flop here?

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What for? Not only are we ahead of their PF ranges pretty often, but we flopped a flush draw and two overs. This doesn't seem like the spot to refuse making a continuation bet. Plus, if we check and there's a bet and raise into us, cold-calling turns our hand face up.

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I guess I don't think we're ahead all that often - it seems optimistic to think that neither of them has a pair or A-high. I dunno, I guess betting is still right since we could have as many as 15 outs if our overcards are good. If button raises and EP calls, are you 3-betting for value?

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

3-town express

Given the description he could have a variety of hands like 46s, A3s, or a lower flush. I think you would be missing alot of value not 3-betting. If he 4-bets then i think you have to call.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

Call.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

Well, Ace high might fold and then we win monies. Even if one of the villian has a small pair, we are an equity advantage as long as he doesnt hold a K or Q. If the 3rd player comes along for the ride then we gain even more equity.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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it seems optimistic to think that neither of them has a pair or A-high. I dunno, I guess betting is still right since we could have as many as 15 outs if our overcards are good. If button raises and EP calls, are you 3-betting for value?

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We don't need to be ahead. Good chance button has AQ/AJ/KQ type hands and will fold his two black cards. EP will also be hard-pressed to continue with overcards on the turn if we bet again. We can always check the turn if we want.

I think it's unlikely button raises and EP calls, more likely button raises and EP either 3-bets or folds, but if they are both in the hand I usually just call OOP if raised. In position, you can try to see if raiser has that "I got a set" look in his eye or not. Then you can either call or 4-bet it.

I like a river call though, I don't think we can 3-town this hand the way it's played out, unless we think button has JTs?!?!

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

I don't understand how people are advising a threebet on the river...This raise is either a random bluff or a hand that has us beat more often then not. He did call three bets preflop. You would have to be the loosest of loose people to have worse than AJ/AT or a 99 type hand here. Are you trying to convince me he has JTs flush? I think his range is a lot more AJ hearts, AT hearts and 99 then anything else...call and then cry that you were never ahead in the hand.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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Call.

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Happy birthday Shawn!

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

This is almost always the nut flush. Make the crying call.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

this would be more interesting if somehow you had K2hh, because then villain could have more flushes like QJhh, and QThh.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

For those saying he might have a lower flush, why wouldn't he raise the turn to charge the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Is the answer to that just that he's a weird spaz type? I was sort of thinking he either has a boat or nothing -- with nothing being anything from total air to a good pair to trip 3s that he thinks are good.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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For those saying he might have a lower flush, why wouldn't he raise the turn to charge the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Is the answer to that just that he's a weird spaz type? I was sort of thinking he either has a boat or nothing -- with nothing being anything from total air to a good pair to trip 3s that he thinks are good.

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Why would he need to charge someone with the naked Ah when he holds it? There is a third player in the pot correct?

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

It seems much more likely has has a hand that beats yours and will either 4-bet or call than he has a hand that you beat and that will call your 3-bet, so I would just call.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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For those saying he might have a lower flush, why wouldn't he raise the turn to charge the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Is the answer to that just that he's a weird spaz type? I was sort of thinking he either has a boat or nothing -- with nothing being anything from total air to a good pair to trip 3s that he thinks are good.

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Why would he need to charge someone with the naked Ah when he holds it?

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If he held it, he wouldn't have a lower flush, he'd have a higher one.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

This is a call.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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For those saying he might have a lower flush, why wouldn't he raise the turn to charge the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Is the answer to that just that he's a weird spaz type? I was sort of thinking he either has a boat or nothing -- with nothing being anything from total air to a good pair to trip 3s that he thinks are good.

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Why would he need to charge someone with the naked Ah when he holds it?

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If he held it, he wouldn't have a lower flush, he'd have a higher one.

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sorry, I misread your post.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

I always call here then get shown Ah3o or aces or something [censored] stupid.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

you really ought to 3 bet-call this river against an erratic player. you will be looking at Ah3x, smaller flushes, and even weirdly played overpairs too often to not get value with your flush.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

"Is the answer to that just that he's a weird spaz type?"

YES! this hand is a great example of good, sensible players trying to attribute their thinking to an irrational individual, and that's a pretty big mistake because in live poker especially at commerce you run into quite a few irrational thinkers.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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I always call here then get shown Ah3o or aces or something [censored] stupid.

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"lol aces" was my first thought as well. not saying its the most likely, but its definitely in the range.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

I can 3bet quickly and fold to a 4bet faster.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

3-bet. I think his most likely hands are 34 36 or A3 with the A of hearts.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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Is it wrong to want to just check the flop here?

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are you [censored] kidding me?

3bet river, if he doesnt have a straight or worse flush he probably has 6s3s/Ah3x or something moronic like that that he'll gladly call 3 with, if he 4bets then pay him his hard earned money because he sounds dumb enough that i dont mind telling myself he could play a worse flush like this thinking it cant possibly lose.

*edit*
should have read replies to see that mike l already gave the right answer

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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then pay him his hard earned money because he sounds dumb enough that i dont mind telling myself he could play a worse flush like this thinking it cant possibly lose.

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I agree with the flop bet(LOL at doing anything else) and a river 3bet, but this train of thought is a very bad poker mantra to have and I would've thought that you of all people you wouldn't have it.

Not trying to be a douche but this sounds like a bad justification to use, ever. I wouldn't care if a lot of the people in this forum said this, but I've been told you're better than this. We 3bet/call because it's +EV. (I personally think it's close)

Edit: Sometimes I can't tell if you're leveling with your beats. This may be another one of those times.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

Call?

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

So, Joker raises pre-flop, bets the flop, bets the turn, bets the river, 3 bets the river, and this dude choose to 4-bet and you think the 2nd nut flush on a paired board is worth a call?

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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So, Joker raises pre-flop, bets the flop, bets the turn, bets the river, 3 bets the river, and this dude choose to 4-bet and you think the 2nd nut flush on a paired board is worth a call?

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It's worth a call from a total drunken, doped-up, moron, idiotic imbecile. Let's remember something, ppl: We may consider that our opponents play worse overall than we do but that doesn't necessarily make them all horrible beyond belief all the time. OP had pounded this pot at every opportunity and then gets raised. Unless he knows the raisers tendencies pretty well I think just calling the river raise is in order.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

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OP had pounded this pot at every opportunity and then gets raised. Unless he knows the raisers tendencies pretty well I think just calling the river raise is in order.


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He didn't "pound the pot". He never got the chance. He had the PF lead and kept betting, and they just called along. I'd agree with just calling if a few postflop raises went in somewhere, but here our hand is just too strong compared to his range.

Re: Bizarre river raise
 

I would 3b. So many more combos of worse flushes + other weird stuff.