Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science...ace/index.html

This raises two questions in my mind,
1) Is this true?

2) Should I believe it is true because this guy obviously knows more about genetics than %99.99999 of the population?
(Similar to some of the arguements thrown around about Global Warming (this isnt a hit on global warming just making a comparision))

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

This isn't really something that being a geneticist qualifies you to answer. That being said, there's no particular reason to expect Africans and Europeans to test/perform the same. It's also one hell of a bitch to measure fairly because of the implicit cultural biases in testing (and who's doing the testing? Euros). If there's evidence that stands up to close scrutiny, sure, believe it, but don't believe it just because Watson said so. And expect a lot of fair and rational reporting on the subject.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

I'd imagine part of it is due to malnutrition. If as a child you don't have enough proteins etc., this can stunt brain development. Africa has a far higher number of people who grow up essentially starving than Europe. I wouldn't base it on genetics, but on how one grows up. If one's mind is constantly stimulated (good education) and one's stomach fed, then the person has the ability to meet up to their potential. If either of these things is not true, then brain growth can be stunted

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

I read about this today, thought it would make it here.

An interesting thing is that Asian-Americans outperformed both white and black counterparts in IQ tests.

Personally I don't see why there is any reason to believe that one group of a spicies seperated for any serious length of time (evolutionary speaking) with different diets, needs and survival mechanisms to develope cognitive ability's at the same rates or in the same areas.

Truth be told, this just shows that there is a difference in the way we measure intelligence between sample groups, but there is nothing to say that if we had a different method of testing intelligence (Maybe leaving 1000 people each genetic ancestory on 1000 identical islands for 2 months with no tools/food and measure weight loss) then the results would be different, and who knows in what way they would be different.

But it is not a surprise me to learn that different types of people perform differently to any specific test. Be that an IQ test, or a 100m sprint.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

There is a professor / researcher at the University of Western Ontario who also made these claims. I remember when his studies were published people freaked out and wanted him removed from the university.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

Regardless of whether it's true or not, I found this part of the article most interesting:

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Watson is not the first scientist to show sympathy for the theory of a racial basis for intellectual difference. In March of last year Dr. Frank Ellis from Leeds University provoked anger in Britain after he admitted he found evidence that racial groups perform differently "extremely convincing."

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently, the subject is so completely taboo that it's no longer PC for scientists to come to their own independent conclusions about how convincing the evidence actually is.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

I have previously posted in this forum that I believe that there is an genetically-based IQ difference between races. To my mind, it would be more remarkable if there were not. There are clearly genetic advantages in other areas - for instance, blacks make better runners and whites better swimmers (just watch the next Olympics if you doubt this). However I think this:

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He said he hoped that everyone was equal, but countered that "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true"

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is retarded. You would have to work with a ton of people to be sure of this, and even then, utility at work is not a good measure of IQ (it mostly measures laziness, etc).

If you want to read a concise and fairly light argument for IQ differences between races, try The Inequality Taboo, by Charles Murray, one of the authors of the notorious "The Bell Curve". (The annotated and referenced version is here).

An expert's opinion on whether something is true should definitely influence your own beliefs. However, racial IQ difference is in the domain of psychology (or "psychometrics", if you like) and statistics, not genetics.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

When the outcome of such findings will be that people ask if 'black are dumber' then yes, they should bloody well keep their mouths shut - because that is hardly what they are saying.

And I very much doubt the findings are solid enough to warrant giving them in simplified form in a newspaper interview - so if you ask me he killed his own academic career and reputation, and justly so.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd imagine part of it is due to malnutrition. If as a child you don't have enough proteins etc., this can stunt brain development. Africa has a far higher number of people who grow up essentially starving than Europe. I wouldn't base it on genetics, but on how one grows up. If one's mind is constantly stimulated (good education) and one's stomach fed, then the person has the ability to meet up to their potential. If either of these things is not true, then brain growth can be stunted

[/ QUOTE ]

These factors are always controlled for. Pretty much the sole thing that can't be completely controlled for is that being a part of, for instance, "black culture" is a disincentive to mental development. But this argument seems dubious in light of the fact that the biggest differences are found in tests which are the most abstract (more technically, the most g-loaded tests - g being the General Mental Factor) and not tests which involve things like knowledge or memory, which one would expect to be more affected by cultural environment.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of whether it's true or not, I found this part of the article most interesting:

[ QUOTE ]
Watson is not the first scientist to show sympathy for the theory of a racial basis for intellectual difference. In March of last year Dr. Frank Ellis from Leeds University provoked anger in Britain after he admitted he found evidence that racial groups perform differently "extremely convincing."

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently, the subject is so completely taboo that it's no longer PC for scientists to come to their own independent conclusions about how convincing the evidence actually is.

[/ QUOTE ]

He teaches Russian, it's not like he's expressing a professional opinion.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

Yeah, what most people don't know is that intelligence tests are not generalizable across cultures, what they might know is that the term intelligence is hotly debated, and is not strictly defined - so when a renowned scientist goes out and says something like this, then its pure junk - nothing else.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

[ QUOTE ]
When the outcome of such findings will be that people ask if 'black are dumber' then yes, they should bloody well keep their mouths shut - because that is hardly what they are saying.

And I very much doubt the findings are solid enough to warrant giving them in simplified form in a newspaper interview - so if you ask me he killed his own academic career and reputation, and justly so.


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What findings? He didn't do his own study -- he simply noted his own opinion on what he found convincing, based on work other people had done. Welcome to the wonderful world of thought crime.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

I guess it was the findings of those other people he used then - like people do 99% of the time in academics, I fail to see the significance of the question? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what most people don't know is that intelligence tests are not generalizable across cultures, what they might know is that the term intelligence is hotly debated, and is not strictly defined - so when a renowned scientist goes out and says something like this, then its pure junk - nothing else.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General...ligence_factor

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

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I guess it was the findings of those other people he used then - like people do 99% of the time in academics, I fail to see the significance of the question? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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The simplicity of the situation is that some professor finds some body of work convincing. If someone asks him about that issue, it looks to me like you're saying he shouldn't be allowed to tell the truth.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what most people don't know is that intelligence tests are not generalizable across cultures, what they might know is that the term intelligence is hotly debated, and is not strictly defined - so when a renowned scientist goes out and says something like this, then its pure junk - nothing else.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General...ligence_factor

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the general intelligence factor which you linked to with that article is indeed hotly debated and many claim it is plain out false, whereas others say it is simply irrelevant.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I guess it was the findings of those other people he used then - like people do 99% of the time in academics, I fail to see the significance of the question? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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The simplicity of the situation is that some professor finds some body of work convincing. If someone asks him about that issue, it looks to me like you're saying he shouldn't be allowed to tell the truth.

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First of all, his opinion here is not truth - there is no solid enough finding to claim this is truth. First you would have to a generalizable intelligence test, then you would have to have a strict definition of intelligence and then you would have to academic agreement on that term.

So what he stated was his opinion - and knowing he is an authority on the subject he should know what may fall, I don't deny him to the right to say what he feels like but neither do I feel any remorse that he pays the price.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

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First of all, his opinion here is not truth - there is no solid enough finding to claim this is truth. First you would have to a generalizable intelligence test, then you would have to have a strict definition of intelligence and then you would have to academic agreement on that term.

So what he stated was his opinion - and knowing he is an authority on the subject he should know what may fall, I don't deny him to the right to say what he feels like but neither do I feel any remorse that he pays the price.

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We're all grown-ups here. We all know that opinion isn't truth. But opinion IS something, and if asked about it, are scientists to be punished for telling the simple truth? (unless, of course, it's the correct, PC opinion, which is always welcome)

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

No he shouldn't be punished, but he certainly has to take the consequences of his statements.

If academic circles doesn't want to have him lecture, then this is because simplified statements of burning issues in newspapers is not a good academic way to go about things, believe it or not. There are plenty academics who disagree with what he says, plenty of academics who believe newspaper is not a fit arena for scientific debate and plenty of academics who believe one has to be extremely cautious with public statements on this issue for good reasons. Yes, this will rightfully damage his academic reputation.

As for what the public thinks, their verdict is just something you have to accept when you go public.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

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Yes, the general intelligence factor which you linked to with that article is indeed hotly debated and many claim it is plain out false, whereas others say it is simply irrelevant.

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Presumably you will be able to point me to some arguments from these "many" or "others". Arguments specifically dealing with reasonably up-to-date g theory - for instance, Jensen's 1998 article on g.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

As David has frequently pointed out, an intelligent guy says something, all things being equal, we should give it more credence than when a guy not as intelligent says it. But this guy is a bigot. Nothing he says about race should be taken without a shovelful of salt.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

Gardner's works are what first and foremost comes to mind.

Alot of the experiments done on Vygotsky's social intelligence comes to mind, which shows that the arena for use of some forms of logic change from culture to culture. Amongst others it was shown how street children of brazil could not perform math on paper, but performed maths very well when set in the cultural context of trade ( think that was a study by Nunes). Looking for articles on social learning, social construction would probably reveal alot.

The above can be set in light by the old riddle - if you do something, and somebody trains a machine to do it better, does this mean you are more stupid than the machine? What if this something is an intelligence test?

And that is not a bad question, especially when you consider that you can train yourself to do well on intelligence tests. Are you then becoming more intelligent or are you getting better at the tests?

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have previously posted in this forum that I believe that there is an genetically-based IQ difference between races. To my mind, it would be more remarkable if there were not. There are clearly genetic advantages in other areas - for instance, blacks make better runners and whites better swimmers (just watch the next Olympics if you doubt this).

[/ QUOTE ]
I saw this story and expected to run into it on here and find some good discussion (which there has been). For some reason though, I fixated on this. While I think it would be difficult to argue that there is not a genetic difference between races in ability to run fast, I think the disparity in regards to swimming can be attributed to a number of other factors. Same goes for ice hockey, golf (a couple decades ago, at least), and certain other activities in which a particular group displays disproportionate success. Can't the disparity be explained by several correlations working together that have nothing to do with genetic ability?

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

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Same goes for ice hockey, golf (a couple decades ago, at least), and certain other activities in which a particular group displays disproportionate success.

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Tiger Woods is only 1/4 black. The world considers him black. The blacks consider him black. Tiger does not consider himself black. He's a person of multi-ethnic
background.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

Yeah. I wasn't referring to Tiger. Just generalizing the concept. Regardless his background, he's not a wealthy white guy so he still serves as an example. Think Veejay or other young guys coming up if you want.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

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Yeah. I wasn't referring to Tiger. Just generalizing the concept. Regardless his background, he's not a wealthy white guy so he still serves as an example.

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But he is relevant - because he's perceived as black. Even if the conclusions being drawn on the basis of these studies were valid (I don't think they are, and I think a majority of geneticists would agree), they indicate very little about "black people" in a country where the "one drop" rule is applied. A person who is of 3/4 asian descent and 1/4 african descent gets the "black" stereotypes applied, but we can expect his IQ to be higher than normal if this racial intelligence stuff is true.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

I don't see how looking at facts and drawing conclusions can be racist. I believe there probably is some correlation between race and intelligence although not enough to draw any huge conclusions. For instance, if the 45th percentile of whites is smarter than the 55th percentile of blacks, that doesn't mean that "blacks are stupid" or that we should prejudge people we meet based on their race. I don't see why anyone should find this idea offensive at all.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

Tiger is 3/8 Thai, 1/8 Chinese, 1/4 Black, 1/8 White, and 1/8 American Indian.

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What about breeds of dogs? If someone said one breed is smarter than another breed, would he immediately be dismissed as a dog racist?

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

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I don't see how looking at facts and drawing conclusions can be racist. I believe there probably is some correlation between race and intelligence although not enough to draw any huge conclusions. For instance, if the 45th percentile of whites is smarter than the 55th percentile of blacks, that doesn't mean that "blacks are stupid" or that we should prejudge people we meet based on their race. I don't see why anyone should find this idea offensive at all.

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Well, how did you measure their intelligence?

An average auto-mechanic is better at me at fixing engines and alot of the skills needed for that, does this means he is smarter than me? If I managed to score higher than him at an intelligence test, does this mean I am smarter than him?

If smart = some measure of ability in a test, then yes, but if you think about it, that does nothing for the discussion. You would have to have a completely generalizable measure of brain-related computer power - which doesn't exist.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

ViJay Singh isn't black. He's a native of Fiji.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

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What about breeds of dogs? If someone said one breed is smarter than another breed, would he immediately be dismissed as a dog racist?

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There is nothing analogous to dog breed in humans. Even if there were, it would be silly to make classifications based on a single phenotype. Are dogs with white fur smarter than dogs with black fur? Are dogs with yellow fur the smartest of all? These questions are meaningless. Comparing a black lab and a golden retriever might be valid, but comparing all dogs based on fur color is not.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

I wasn't commenting on the OP. I was commenting on ChrisV's post where he said whites make better swimmers. I compared swimming to other "traditionally white" sports (hockey, golf) and said I think there are reasons other than genetics that they were traditionally white. Thanks for correcting me on Vijay though. I highjacked the thread to talk about swimming ability. My bad.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

But is there any possibility the scientist is right?
Political correctness has such that this statement
can't even be discussed or evaluated in polite
company.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

I can't help but think that the type of objections displayed in this thread are a major roadblock in the discussion of several issues of this nature. To find this work offensive is to take yourself outside of the science.

No-one said black=dumb. No-one.

The only people that would take this article and get to that conclusion are 1) people that were allready there anyway, and 2) people that are poorly educated/braiwashed by their enviorenment into a state in which no intelligent person would take their opinion to mean anything anyway when this type of subject is discussed.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

Jews are much, much better at physics than are Gentiles.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

First, can't this easily be verified or proven wrong through testing?

Secondly, does it even matter if it's true? Can or should something like that ever be said? And we think religion is a touchy topic?...

I've often wondered whether certain races were either slightly ahead or behind other races on an evolutionary scale. I'm white, and it wouldn't surprise me (or offend me), to learn that Asians are more intelligent than people of my race.

I mean, the guy makes a point... There's no reason to think that all races evolved equally at the same pace over time.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

[ QUOTE ]
But is there any possibility the scientist is right?
Political correctness has such that this statement
can't even be discussed or evaluated in polite
company.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is he right? That depends on what he means. Is his criticism of social policy valid? I think so. Are his conclusions justified based on the evidence? No. Do dark-skinned ethnicities have lower IQ scores across the board than light-skinned ethnicities? Of course it's possible, but it seems highly unlikely - even if there is a general trend or correlation, given the number of different geographical areas and natural environments we're considering, it's likely that there are major exceptions.

I'm not suggesting that the question shouldn't be discussed, I think this PC stuff is [censored].

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

[ QUOTE ]
First, can't this easily be verified or proven wrong through testing?

Secondly, does it even matter if it's true? Can or should something like that ever be said? And we think religion is a touchy topic?...

I've often wondered whether certain races were either slightly ahead or behind other races on an evolutionary scale. I'm white, and it wouldn't surprise me (or offend me), to learn that Asians are more intelligent than people of my race.

I mean, the guy makes a point... There's no reason to think that all races evolved equally at the same pace over time.

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What you're missing is that there are no "races." Groups like "white" and "asian" comprise a large number of ethnicities. The "white/yellow/red/brown/black" divisions have little scientific basis, they take a single trait (skin color) and categorize a huge number of ethnicities on that basis alone.

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

James Watson has always been somewhat of a douche. It was clear to me when I read The Double Helix, but I didn't think he was this bad.

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This raises two questions in my mind,
1) Is this true?

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Studies show higher average IQ scores among Asians than whites and higher average IQ scores among whites than blacks.

The first relevant question is how much of IQ is determined by genetics and how much is environmental. It's clear that both are contributing factors, but twin studies tend to put more weight on the genetic side. Under particularly adverse circumstances such as significant malnutrition or growing up in a nasty environment like an orphanage, however, I believe environmental factors weigh more strongly than genetic ones. Overall though, the current evidence does tend to suggest a genetic difference in IQ ability between blacks, whites and Asians.

The second question is how important is IQ? It does seem fallacious to equate IQ with intelligence. Certainly it means something. Especially for those with significantly below average IQs (identifying these individuals in their childhood was the initial purpose of the test, not serving as an overall intelligence metric). But how much it means I can't really say, since it's not something I've looked into. I know schools and employers have never asked me for my IQ.

The third question is what can you do with this information if we decide that IQ is mostly genetic and that it is in fact equatable with intelligence? Almost nothing IMO. Even if there is an average difference between races, there is still too much variation between individuals to make intelligence assumptions about anyone based on their race. I.E. there are plenty of highly intelligent black people and plenty of white/asian morons. No scientists have denied that. There are many factors that will tell you more about a person than their race.

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2) Should I believe it is true because this guy obviously knows more about genetics than %99.99999 of the population?
(Similar to some of the arguements thrown around about Global Warming (this isnt a hit on global warming just making a comparision))

[/ QUOTE ]
No, obviously not. Watson is (loosely) basing his view on the work of people like Hernstein, which has almost nothing to do with the type of genetic biology he has engaged in. The type of science in "The Bell Curve" is about making environmental inferences about genetics. Watson's worked on a far lower (i.e. more microscopic) level. That is, he was a biologist, not a social scientist. It's not as if he was studying the human genome one day and said "Wow, black people are terrible employees!" And his statement about blacks being bad employees had nothing to do with science, it was entirely based on douchebaggery (and he does have some credentials in that field). I think he has the right to say what he wants, but academic institutions also have the right to berate him for it or distance themselves from him. Maybe he's getting senile in his old age?

Re: Nobel Prize scientist - Black people are dumb
 

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it was entirely based on douchebaggery (and he does have some credentials in that field)

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*coughrosalindfranklin*