TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

Poker Stars
4/180 No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t15/t30
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1655
UTG+1: t1190
MP1: t1535
MP2: t2060
Hero: t2495
CO: t3315
Button: t2170
SB: t1345
BB: t3115

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP2 calls t30 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t45)</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t120</font>, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to t1200</font>, MP2 folds,

Action is on me. Completely baffled by villain's line here. Had only been at the table for 2 orbits or so, and villain had shown down two hands, both AQo (one of which was after a pre-flop 60BB reraise shove).

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

even if you have the best hand(which you prolly do) i dont like risking my whole stack this early. I fold here

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

Super easy fold without read.

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

Sometimes early on I even limp w/ 1010 here, but some may think that's too nitty. No reads? Fold.

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Super easy fold without read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

uuh ? what ?

how can u guys call this a super easy fold ... ?
this is a shove for me against this villian all time

if he calls a 60BB shove or is the one shoving 60BB with AQo

besides this is 4/180 at 15/30 i dont mind taking this flip here
if you put his range at JJ+ AQo+ KQo+
then ur about 40/60 dog
if he doesnt have a pair bigger then you then youre 60/40 favorite

depends just on how much you mind taking early shot
but IMO
Shove it win it and go on
Shove it Lose and open up a new one

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

I'd be tempted by the (villian is a moron) + (TT does well against a moron's range) = shove line. Close.

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like risking my whole stack this early. I fold here

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No. Bad reason.

My move here depends somewhat on site/buy in. These wierdo overbets seem to almost always be QQ+. He's trying to make you think he's an idiot etc etc. I think I'd still call here especially the lower the buy in, but a fold is probably ok just because of the read I gave you.

I think pretty much in a 4/180 this is a call though. Paging [censored] I guess.

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

Huge re-raise are often mind pairs in these kind of tourneys, I think youa re ahead of his range and he will call alot. I wouldn't be suprised to see JJ, but I think thats the only hand youa re worried about.

Also, saying you probably have the best hand but fold is just plain dumb...

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

As played, I think it's a fold since you're dominated some and you dominate rarely. However, can we talk about the raise size? Doesn't raising more reduce villan's range for shoving over and also make limper's call of our raise (absent the shove) less correct? I guess, I'm asking what the purpose of the 120 raise is since it prices the limper into the pot and encourages CO and Button to come along?

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Action is on me. Completely baffled by villain's line here. Had only been at the table for 2 orbits or so, and villain had shown down two hands, both AQo (one of which was after a pre-flop 60BB reraise shove).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd push. This is a 4/180 and some players are super loose in the early rounds. I think you're either ahead or waaaaaay ahead. (If he has AK/AQ, you're racing to a nice double up.)

If he has a monster, you've only invested $4.40 and 10 minutes...fire up the next one!

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, can we talk about the raise size? Doesn't raising more reduce villan's range for shoving over and also make limper's call of our raise (absent the shove) less correct? I guess, I'm asking what the purpose of the 120 raise is since it prices the limper into the pot and encourages CO and Button to come along?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero made a standard raise: 3+n x bb (x = number of limpers). Eg. - If you're first in the pot (and blinds are t30), raise is t90. If there is 1 limper, raise is t90 + t30 = t120.

At this level, we make raises proportional to the blinds to balance different aspects of the game such as bettting consistentcy so we do not provide reads on our play, controlling pot size, distorting odds for weaker hands, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "encouraging CO and Button to come along"? How would they know whether the original limper would call the bet and give them implied odds. They folded the hand in question. (A better argument would be that if CO and button smoothcalled, then MP2 would be have great pot odds to call.)

And if the limper has an inferior hand, why wouldn't we want him to call our raise? We have position, a solid pp, and we know how to play poker. Bring it on!

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

I was thinking that a raise of 160 would do two things: 1) narrow the hands that CO and Button call with and solidify our last to act position - which I agree with you is very important here. I guess I have seen enough buttons calling that "standard" raise with random, sometimes suited, sometimes not, overcards "just to see what happens". TT is tough to play OOP so I want them out if I can help it; and, 2) possibly get the limper out of the hand if has the some of the cards we don't like, that limp UTG a lot in these games (like Ax, QJ, KJo, K10) - and keep him in with hands we do like 55-99 and middle suited cards.

Do you think a bigger raise reveals this somewhat defensive thinking?

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think a bigger raise reveals this somewhat defensive thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

It could. If you want to raise 4x, then you should always raise 4x, even when you have AA/KK. We don't want LP players to know we raise 4x when we're afraid and 2x when we have monsters.

And what if the limnper calls with overcards? We have position. By controlling the size of the pot (and not overbetting), we can release our hand on an unfavorable flop, or continuation bet if we smell weakness.

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

120 is a pretty standard raise there. 3x BB + 1x BB per limper. I'm not worried about pricing in the limper. He's exhibited no strength, and at 4/180, the limpers almost always come along, unless you massively overbet. And I'm not looking to bluff at this thing with TT and pick up a whopping t75 pot. I'm trying to build a pot with one or two callers and a strong hand, so why would I make a big overbet and scare off anything that doesn't have me crushed or flipping?

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

Fold

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

I'd shove - the move is really weird, but I think your biggest concern here is JJ.

Still I think you will mostly be up against AQ, AK, mid-pairs or even worse hands.

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

Shove. Never pass up edges early...especially in these tournneys. I would quote Adanthar's great post on not passing up early edges that's in the MTT Wisdom thread...but the link isn't working.

But Shaundeeb's fantastic guide to 4/180's (same thread)speaks to this.....I quote:

"Most likely the players you will be playing many pots against are the fish and weaker players since many of the better players are prob multitabling and thus folding a lot of marginal hands. So seize this great time to take chips off those who will give them up easily. I am not afraid of big pots on any hand because remember it's a 180 and another one prob is 1/3rd of the way registered."

I am too lazy to do the math....but his possible range is huge....and while you could be behind...it's more likely you are ahead or flipping. And Shaundeeb is the man on 4/180's......

SO PUUUUUSSSSSSH.

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Had only been at the table for 2 orbits or so, and villain had shown down two hands, both AQo (one of which was after a pre-flop 60BB reraise shove).

[/ QUOTE ]

So in one hand he reraised to 60BB and the other hand he didn't?

Re: TT faces 10x reraise. WTF to do here?
 

I don't mind racing early in a tournament. I'm pushing TT+, AK here all day.