Pregnant GF
 

Sorry for the fake account - reason should be obv.

So here's the story.

I've been with my GF for about a year and a half now. She's 20, I'm 22. She was grown up Catholic, but lost her religion a few years ago. Nowadays she is very liberal and openminded. We have a very healthy, open relationship. Very good communication. We almost always know how the other is feeling/thinking.

During our ENTIRE relationship, we've had numerous conversations about how neither of us are ready to have kids, how we've got the whole world to see before we drop anchor, and how if we're ever in that situation there is only 1 way to handle it.

That's right folks, I've been planning ahead for this scenario for the extent of the relationship. I've made it perfectly clear from day 1 that I will not be ready to have kids until I'm 25+. She never had any problems with that, and seemed to completely agree. We would constantly make jokes about how "we're not driving a [censored] minivan" "no way we're raising a kid in this crappy town" etc etc. She has been taking her birth control every day for ~4 years. Even when we pass out drunk, she'll wake up at 4am and take it - no exceptions.

Yadda yadda yadda, the strip had a + on it, we're [censored] pregnant.


For the first week, she and I were in agreement. There is no way we could fit a child into our lives. I'm a college dropout poker player who makes -ok- money. She is finishing her first year of college, and likely wont graduate if the baby is born. We live in a crappy midwest town where if you start your family, your chances of escaping are close to 0. On top of all of that, she is about 9 weeks along, and we have both smoked/drank quite a few days during that time. Apparently this is the most sensitive developmental time for a fetus, and this could result in birth defects. There is a long long LONG list of reasons not to start the parenting process yet.


But my GF has been talking to her friends and family. All of them have lived in this [censored] town their entire lives. All of them have been pregnant at a young age. None of them graduated from college or have any type of career, or even a job that pays more than 10$/hr. None of them are ever leaving this place. ALL OF THEM ARE ENCOURAGING HER TO HAVE THIS BABY. It's like they [censored] their own lives up, and they want us to make the same mistakes so they're not the only one.

To make it even worse - every pregnancy resource center in town (and I mean EVERY one) is run by a christian organization, and they immediately hate you if you go in there asking about an abortion.


Now she wants to keep it.

[censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored]

[censored]


I am obviously not ready. I need to leave this town. I need a more reliable income. I need to experience so much more in the world and within myself before I'm ready to teach another human being how to live.


My GF has an amazing motherly instinct. She is in college to be a nurse. She currently has a job taking care of autistic children (8-15 years old). She would be a great mother. I could honestly see myself marrying her under the right circumstances.

If we were to have an abortion, she will undoubtedly have to deal with depression, and this will probably haunt her for a long time. There is a very good chance that she would leave me at some point afterward, because I am pretty much the only voice in her life supporting abortion. I hate feeling like I have to force her into this, but it is the only option that makes sense.

If there is no abortion, I don't know what will happen. There is a good chance she will miscarry, but I am not willing to gamble on that (Most of the women in her family miscarry their first child. She drank/smoked during the first trimester. She has had mild abdominal cramping the past few weeks) I hate to think about it, but if she still intends on having this child, I can see myself leaving her before the 9 months are even over. My worst fear is being stuck in this god damn town with all of these god damn hicks. No way in [censored] hell am I ever raising MY child in this [censored]-hole.

If this baby is born, our stay will undoubtedly be lengthened. We will end up getting closer to her white-trash family who I can't even stand to be around. (and they've been rooted in this same town for generations)

I really dont know what to do. I'm obviously not ready to be a father. I was planning selling my house and moving within a year. I was planning on proposing to her this coming Christmas.(we both wanted to have a 2+ yr engagement period before getting married)

Parenthood is a 20+ year process, and its like nobody in this [censored] town realizes that. By the time the kid(s) are grown up and gone, I'll be too god damn old to enjoy anything.

I see nothing at all wrong with waiting 3-5 years and having a child. In fact, I am the last man in my family line. I need to have a boy in the future, or my family name dies with me. Even that isn't enough to convince me to have a kid now. I could be such a better parent in a few years. I dont want to be devastated and terrified when I see the + on the strip. I dont want to worry about birth defects because we were unaware/drunk/high for the first trimester of pregnancy. I dont want to regret giving up my dreams and ambitions for the rest of my life.

Once I am prepared, I think I will be an amazing father. And if it works out that way, my GF would be an amazing mother. But right now, I dont know what to do to reach that end.

I'm not really sure of the purpose of this post. Maybe someone else has experienced the same and would like to chime in with some advice. Or maybe I just dont have anybody aside from my gf to talk to about it and need some kind of outlet to get my thoughts out.

I AM sure that the purpose of this thread is not to start an abortion debate. There is another thread for that.

Thanks for reading, and if anybody has some advice to give me, I am all ears.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

tl;dr

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
She drank/smoked during the first trimester.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Don't have kids please.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

If you need help with baby names:

Rachel
Katie
Michael
Joseph

Re: Pregnant GF
 

All I can say is that I feel for you. I went through something similar when I was young and stupid and (as callous as this sounds) was really happy when she miscarried. I certainly wasn't ready to be a dad yet. I think your best bet is to get her away from her family to discuss things rationally with her.

Also - was she smoking and drinking when she already knew she was pregnant? If so - you may want to point out that maybe she's not quite ready to be a parent yet either. Having kids is not like getting a new pet. Your life will never be the same.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you need help with baby names:

Rachel
Katie
Michael
Joseph

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate you
at least it made me laugh though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Pregnant GF
 

adoption?

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
All I can say is that I feel for you. I went through something similar when I was young and stupid and (as callous as this sounds) was really happy when she miscarried. I certainly wasn't ready to be a dad yet. I think your best bet is to get her away from her family to discuss things rationally with her.

Also - was she smoking and drinking when she already knew she was pregnant? If so - you may want to point out that maybe she's not quite ready to be a parent yet either. Having kids is not like getting a new pet. Your life will never be the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

the first 7-8 weeks we were completely unaware. She skipped a period, but that has happened a few times before and we werent scared. She was on the pill, I was high and figured I had lazy sperm, didnt even think it was possible.

For the first week after we figured out, it was pretty much business as usual. She only drank once, but we smoke daily. Now that she decided she wants it, she is giving up drinking, but will still continue to smoke daily. She has a friend who told us that pot isnt bad for a fetus (WTF?????).

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
adoption?

[/ QUOTE ]
impossible
if she has this baby she will not give it up
ever
ever

Re: Pregnant GF
 

"I don't want to have kids either"
is right up there with

"The mercedes is paid for"
"I won't come in your mouth"
"I'm with the government and I'm here to help"

Honestly though, you sound a bit douchish -- and this smacks of cosmic justice.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

I felt all the same feelings you did when I found out my GF was pregnant. There was so much I hadn't done that I wanted to, then I looked at my son for the first time, and I realized that there is nothing better than spending time with your kids.

It's a confusing time, my GF got pregnant when we were both 18, we got married, and it's been very good for the last almost 9 years. IF you want to talk more privately I'll be more than willing to chat either on Yahoo messenger, PM's here, or I'll give you my phone number.

Your concerns are valid, but understand that you helped bring a child into this world, wether you planned to or not, and now you will have a responsibility to that child. Not just a financial responsibility, but a responsibility to love, and help care for, and set a good example for, and be a dad to. Whatever you decide, focus your energy into making sure your kid has the best life possible, do not let things get acrimonious with your GF (if you break up with her) and make sure your kid knows that he/she is #1 in your life.

Your GF is really emotional right now, and it wsounds like her family has gotten her to decide to have/keep the baby. Have you guys considered an adoption idea, where a family member/friend adopts the baby, so she can finish school, a family friend of mine did that (open adoption so she can see the kid, the kid thinks she is it's aunt) and was very happy with the decision.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
"I don't want to have kids either"
is right up there with

"The mercedes is paid for"
"I won't come in your mouth"
"I'm with the government and I'm here to help"

Honestly though, you sound a bit douchish -- and this smacks of cosmic justice.

[/ QUOTE ]

-I- sound a bit douchish?
sorry to offend
lol

Re: Pregnant GF
 

Get a real job with insurance and get married, so the mother of your child can get proper medical, you need to grow up fast. Especially if she's already 9 weeks. Until she has an abortion, you have to prepare as if its coming.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

If you DON'T want to b a father and she WON'T get an abortion - you are pretty much screwed.

Sell the house, collect all your worldly possessions and LEAVE TOWN. Move to a place where she will not find you, change your name if you have to.

This is the best I could come up with on such short notice. I hope it helps.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]

-I- sound a bit douchish?
sorry to offend
lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps a squeech.

You have two choices.

Stay and have a kid.
Bail on her.

Not much in-between. I could detail all the shoulda, coulda, woulda stuff -- but I'm sure you've already gone over it.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
I felt all the same feelings you did when I found out my GF was pregnant. There was so much I hadn't done that I wanted to, then I looked at my son for the first time, and I realized that there is nothing better than spending time with your kids.

It's a confusing time, my GF got pregnant when we were both 18, we got married, and it's been very good for the last almost 9 years. IF you want to talk more privately I'll be more than willing to chat either on Yahoo messenger, PM's here, or I'll give you my phone number.

Your concerns are valid, but understand that you helped bring a child into this world, wether you planned to or not, and now you will have a responsibility to that child. Not just a financial responsibility, but a responsibility to love, and help care for, and set a good example for, and be a dad to. Whatever you decide, focus your energy into making sure your kid has the best life possible, do not let things get acrimonious with your GF (if you break up with her) and make sure your kid knows that he/she is #1 in your life.

Your GF is really emotional right now, and it wsounds like her family has gotten her to decide to have/keep the baby. Have you guys considered an adoption idea, where a family member/friend adopts the baby, so she can finish school, a family friend of mine did that (open adoption so she can see the kid, the kid thinks she is it's aunt) and was very happy with the decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most parents who offer their opinions say the same kind of thing. The child is the best thing that could ever happen to them, etc etc.

Honestly, the way I look at it, the fetus is not yet a child. It has the potential to become one if we decide to take the opportunity, but it is not a person yet. This does not need to be our only opportunity.

I truly believe that if this happened 3-5 years in the future - the child, my gf, and myself would all be happier, more fulfilled, and ready to become a family. Having a child now could very easily tear it all apart.


I have heard a lot of "This is your child, it is your responsibility to love/support/etc" this past week. My problem though, is that I still do not see it as a child. I see it as an opportunity that I do not yet want to take.

After the birth of a baby, I 100% agree that I am responsible for keeping it happy and healthy. But I want my child to have every opportunity possible when I bring him/her into this world. The risk of a broken household, a lifetime in a [censored]-hole town, and hell, the risk of fetal alcohol syndrome - these are not things I want to gamble on.

I wish I felt such an obligation as most people seem to. It would make this decision much easier. But in my mind, having this child would be a massive mistake.


Thanks for your input, and if the child is born, I hope I feel the same way as you a year from now. Until then, I am terrified.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
Get a real job with insurance and get married, so the mother of your child can get proper medical, you need to grow up fast. Especially if she's already 9 weeks. Until she has an abortion, you have to prepare as if its coming.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're going to give me a [censored] heart attack

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you need help with baby names:

Rachel
Katie
Michael
Joseph

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate you
at least it made me laugh though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, at least you still have some sense of perspective. Well, if she isn't up for an abortion then you are a father. You will have a financial burden for the next 20 years or longer.

Here are a few things to think about:

1) Do you want to spend your life with this girl?
2) If not, then how involved do you want to be with the upbringing of your kid?

Now is the time to stop freaking out and make some life decisions. They will not get an easier once the baby arrives.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) Do you want to spend your life with this girl?

[/ QUOTE ]
Completely undecided.
2 weeks ago my answer would have been about 90% yes.
Today I cant even estimate. I can already feel a lot of resentment boiling up due to the rest of my life being decided by her. I have not made any big decisions based on this, and will definitely need more time before I know.
Basically, if she decides to keep the baby, my choices are
A) Stay and change my entire life, and hate myself for giving everything up for something I didnt want in the first place.
B) Run away and hate myself for being a coward the rest of my life

Obviously not an easy decision to make

[ QUOTE ]
2) If not, then how involved do you want to be with the upbringing of your kid?

[/ QUOTE ]
100% reliant on the answer to question 1

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if she isn't up for an abortion then you are a father.

[/ QUOTE ]
She isnt completely closed off to the idea of an abortion right now. But she definitely is leaning toward keeping it. I'm sure she is more torn about the decision than I am.

[ QUOTE ]
Now is the time to stop freaking out and make some life decisions. They will not get an easier once the baby arrives.

[/ QUOTE ]
A-[censored]-men

Re: Pregnant GF
 

The clock is ticking so if she is going to get an abortion she better do it soon. It also sounds like all you guys did was have her take a piss test. Get her to a gyno, my gf and I had a scare but she went to the gyno and it was some wierd estrogen thing that caused her to miss her period and get a positive reading and she wasn't actually pregnant.

Now it is my belief that you can not push your girlfriend to have an abortion. You can tell her that is your preference and lay out the reasons why it is best but I do not think you can make her get one just because you do not want to be a father. You need to be an adult right now and have a serious heart to heart with her again about how you are feeling.

And if this doesn't work and she still wants to have the baby, you can always punch her in the stomach a few times...

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]

A) Stay and change my entire life, and hate myself for giving everything up for something I didnt want in the first place.
B) Run away and hate myself for being a coward the rest of my life

[/ QUOTE ]

You really need to find a C option that presents a situation where both you and her have the opportunity to be happy.

One other thing, your girl is most likely going to go through some nasty mood swings while pregnant. My advice is that after you both make a major decision, sleep on it and reconfirm in the morning.

One final thing. Be there for her right now. She is under way more stress than you right now.

Good luck bro.....

Re: Pregnant GF
 

a girl told once told me if this happens to her i should push her down the stairs (for some reason she doesnt want to get an abortion, but is okay with pushing her down the stairs to cause a misbirth- even though the end result is the same, go figure)

Re: Pregnant GF
 

After my first marriage ended, the first girl i dated i knocked up accidentally (duh). Then she tells me she already had 1 abortion and would have another because she definately wasn't "mature" enough to raise a child. At that time I was like "yee haw" lets git-r done or whatever.
So fast-forward $350 later. I still regret that abortion even though i knew i was too immature myself to deal with the responsibility of being a dad at 23 or 24 or whatever age i was. Some guys don't regret it (abortion), i thought i would too as well, but i still think about it even now. That abortion was the kiss of death for that relationship which was fine, but i do regret that decision 12 years later.

Re: Pregnant GF *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by nation

Re: Pregnant GF
 

I'm disgusted by much of the advice in this thread. Anyone who runs in this situation is not a man and is a worthless human being (and dare I say, more "white trash" than her family could ever be). It's one thing to want her to have an abortion, but when she decides to have the kid you have to deal with it and start taking the steps to care for it. Being concerned that the child could be affected by drinking during the first trimester is reasonable. She should see a doctor if she hasn't yet.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She drank/smoked during the first trimester.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Don't have kids please.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhh...they didnt know she was pregnant genius.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't you banned from posting in OOT?

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She drank/smoked during the first trimester.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Don't have kids please.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhh...they didnt know she was pregnant genius.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't you banned from posting in OOT?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeeeah.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
After my first marriage ended, the first girl i dated i knocked up accidentally (duh). Then she tells me she already had 1 abortion and would have another because she definately wasn't "mature" enough to raise a child. At that time I was like "yee haw" lets git-r done or whatever.
So fast-forward $350 later. I still regret that abortion even though i knew i was too immature myself to deal with the responsibility of being a dad at 23 or 24 or whatever age i was. Some guys don't regret it (abortion), i thought i would too as well, but i still think about it even now. That abortion was the kiss of death for that relationship which was fine, but i do regret that decision 12 years later.

[/ QUOTE ]

What were your beliefs concerning abortion before/after it happened? Where do your regrets stem from? I am concerned about hidden guilt/regret/etc that will show its face in the future... but my entire life I have had absolutely 0 problem with the idea of abortion... I'm not sure how I'll be effected

Re: Pregnant GF
 

We are convening an emergency meeting in the Mod forum to discuss this blatant disregard for OOT policies and procedures. Stay tuned for exciting updates!

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
adoption?

[/ QUOTE ]
impossible
if she has this baby she will not give it up
ever
ever

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, yet she was thinking about aborting it? Giving up the baby for adoption is far and away the best option. This is regardless of your beliefs on the morality of abortion, because you said yourself that she will likely become depressed if she aborts.

I think if you tell her "you should give the baby up for adoption because we aren't ready to care for it yet", and she flat out says "No, I'm keeping it or aborting it", then this is grounds for leaving her with a clear conscience.

FWIW, I was adopted (biological parents had me when they were like 14 and 15 or something), and I am pretty damn glad they made that choice. I never understand how there is any dilemma in the type of situation you describe, as the correct answer is pretty clear cut in my opinion.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm disgusted by much of the advice in this thread. Anyone who runs in this situation is not a man and is a worthless human being (and dare I say, more "white trash" than her family could ever be). It's one thing to want her to have an abortion, but when she decides to have the kid you have to deal with it and start taking the steps to care for it. Being concerned that the child could be affected by drinking during the first trimester is reasonable. She should see a doctor if she hasn't yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it is OK for the girl to make a decision for OP that will affect him for the rest of his life and he should have NO say in it aside from trying to convince her it isn't a good idea?

If a contract signed by this girl to the effect that she was going to be the sole parent/hold sole financial responsibility for this child could be enforced in court, I would suggest that before running. If OP is faced with the decision to either run away (and NEVER look back) or be stuck as the father to an unwanted child, WAY BEFORE HE IS READY TO BE A PARENT, I say:

RUN, OP, RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is sad is that it takes more proof of responsibility to get get a Blockbuster membership than it does to have children and there are people out there who think that getting pregnant (by mistake) should suddenly change the man/woman and make them responsible adults/parents.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

You guys are slipping.

http://www.stockphototalk.com/photos...tojonathan.jpg

Re: Pregnant GF
 

Man this mod forum post in question has tons of nude chicks!

Re: Pregnant GF
 

The first thing you need to do is stop blaming this on your GF. It's not her fault, you stuck your dick in her, and didn't wrap it up. Everybody knows (or should) that the pill isn't 100% effective, although it's close. Every man should also know that for all the talk women do about 'if I get pregnant, I'll get an abortion, blah blah blah', most of the time, they change their mind once they get pregnant.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She drank/smoked during the first trimester.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Don't have kids please.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think they did in the 50's and 60's? You don't see a bunch of middle aged mongoloids walking around do you?

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm disgusted by much of the advice in this thread. Anyone who runs in this situation is not a man and is a worthless human being (and dare I say, more "white trash" than her family could ever be). It's one thing to want her to have an abortion, but when she decides to have the kid you have to deal with it and start taking the steps to care for it. Being concerned that the child could be affected by drinking during the first trimester is reasonable. She should see a doctor if she hasn't yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it is OK for the girl to make a decision for OP that will affect him for the rest of his life and he should have NO say in it aside from trying to convince her it isn't a good idea?

If a contract signed by this girl to the effect that she was going to be the sole parent/hold sole financial responsibility for this child could be enforced in court, I would suggest that before running. If OP is faced with the decision to either run away (and NEVER look back) or be stuck as the father to an unwanted child, WAY BEFORE HE IS READY TO BE A PARENT, I say:

RUN, OP, RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is sad is that it takes more proof of responsibility to get get a Blockbuster membership than it does to have children and there are people out there who think that getting pregnant (by mistake) should suddenly change the man/woman and make them responsible adults/parents.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a sick [censored] and a disgusting human being. Now go drink some more jack.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

What about open adoption? You would get to pick the adoptive parents, and you would get to have contact with the kid as he/she gets older, if you want.

My aunt and uncle adopted a little girl this way, it seems to be working out fine.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

[
What were your beliefs concerning abortion before/after it happened? Where do your regrets stem from? I am concerned about hidden guilt/regret/etc that will show its face in the future... but my entire life I have had absolutely 0 problem with the idea of abortion... I'm not sure how I'll be effected

[/ QUOTE ]

At that time, I thought it would be an easy fix and i wouldn't think twice but after the procedure was done, I started thinking alot about it. Was it a boy/girl? Twins? What if i can't concieve in the future? I am far from religeous so those thought didn't even arise. I remember figuring out the approximate b-day and weird crap like that. Now i have an almost 5yr old girl and a 2 1/2 yr old son. Raising kids is the best part of my life and it is about the only thing i am good at.

I am not saying to go ahead trying to get the abortion or not...I am just telling you in my case, i regret it to this day.

If the girl i am dating now (i tried for a camera pic the other night and she freaked) turns out to be pregnant i would vote no abortion and live with my actions and make the best out of it.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

I'd be careful about labeling anyone's family "white trash", or things demeaning in that manner. From my experience people from small towns that don't earn much money but have a lot of family close are some of the happiest people on earth. They certainly work to live and not the other way around.

If you are seriously thinking on bailing on this chick...wow man, just wow. Guys that bail on pregnants gf's rank right down there with child molesters. There are not too many things you can do worse.

I won't share feelings about abortion, but I can say there are thousands of couples on lists that can't have kids that are just praying for the chance to adopt. I think you should just consider this.

As for smoking weed, I know someone that smoked during her entire 2 pregnancies, her kids are healthy and fine now. But I sure can't reccomend anything, I'm not a doctor or anything.

And finally, you play online poker for a living (not a very respectable job), you're a college dropout, and you're calling her family losers? Don't be selfish man, you knew the risks of having sex, now it's time to man up. Children will open up a whole new world you didn't knew existed. You'll learn a lot more about yourself with kids than you ever would seeing the world.

Re: Pregnant GF
 

Consider this about abortion. I always thought like you did. The fetus is not a baby yet, she just goes in and somehow the baby goes away and all is well. Anyway, my GF and I had a little scare once and talked about the different options. She told me the following:

-Abortion is like major surgery. They basically go in, scramble the fetus like a blender, and then suck it out. There is a risk that she won't be able to have children after this.

-Before she is allowed to have the abortion, she must go to counseling or some type of meetings... not exactly sure on this one.

-She must write a letter to her baby apoligizing for what she is going to do. This seems kind of sick, but all the places here make you do that. Reading the letters from other mothers who have gone through with it are apparently enough to make you never want to do it.

Whether these things are true or not, it made me change my thinking.

After she goes through with it, your relationship will most likely be over. She will pretty much be scarred for life.

Now it really depends on if you truly care for her or not. If you do, and you could see yourself being with her happily ever after, I would man up and raise the child with her. If not, run away I guess.