Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

Im writing an article for pokemagazine (swedish magazine) and im analysing a very, imo, intereting hand. Im almost done with the article. But i dont wanna turn in something and find out afterwards that i have missed somthing in my thought process. i was hoping you guys could help me out here.

6-max game. Folded to Zupp on button who raises to 800. Timex calls with 7-7 from SB and BB folds.

Flop(1800) 8-8-8.

Timex check, Zupp folds, Timex calls 1300.

Turn(4400) 5.

Timex chk calls a 4000 bet.

River(12400) A.

Bord is 8-8-8-5-A. Timex checks, Zupp goes all-in for 13700 and timex after along time calls with 7-7. I think that river has many levels of thinking... Is this a bad or good call?

Timex hand is face-up to Zupp, who is a very good thinking highstakes player. Timex, from what ive seen, is also a very good thinking player.

If u want to know results right away ill post them...

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

results

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

edited

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

"Timex check, Zupp folds, Timex calls 1300."

i guess he bet 1300? and wtf dont post results yet just because some lurker wanted to see them

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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"Timex check, Zupp folds, Timex calls 1300."

i guess he bet 1300? and wtf dont post results yet just because some lurker wanted to see them

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yes he bet 1300. damn! Also i think it is a very good call by timex. he derserves alot of credit for making it imo.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

u messed this up. Timex check called flop and turn and timed on the river bet of all in slightly overbet on the A river.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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u messed this up. Timex check called flop and turn and timed on the river bet of all in slightly overbet on the A river.

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Zupp bets turn. not folds turn ofc. Did i mess anything else up? I wrote "folds" instead of "bets" on one place in the post. Only that right?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

I think this kind depends of depends on how the game was playing. You'd expect Zupp to try and bluff this river a very large % of the time. Other than that we have the overbet rather than something that looks more like a value bet. While it IS interesting I think it depends a lot on what level they're playing on, and this is something that they're much more likely to know than anybody else. Obviously 90% timex's range "can't" call this bet, but to turn that into a should call/can't call depends on what level Zupp is thinking on.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

Also, I'd assume that Zupp will value bet TT+ on the river. I'd be interested in how often he'd fire the turn w/A high or total air as it really looks like he'll have to fire on the river to take it down.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

This seems like a perfect spot where game theory is applicable.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

i think timex called because he had a fullhouse!

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

you don't hit a full house too often!

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

btw, i dont think this call is standard or anything, but certainly not out of the question.

When he check calls flop and turn, zupp is prob following thru w/ air on the riv, and i think timex prob thought that w/ ace high zupp would check behind slightly more often on the turn. Not sayin this is true but its prob wat timex was thinkin.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

terk?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

this rly isnt a very interesting hand

Timex probably should have folded preflop , especially with the structure of this tournament. As played he hit a boat and c/c down. His river call was probably -ev vs most players but if he was convinced his opponent was shoving his entire range and playing a standard range on the button then it was +ev for sure, although this is a big assumption

find a better hand mabe?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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i think timex prob thought that w/ ace high zupp would check behind slightly more often on the turn.

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this is key to timex river call.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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i think timex prob thought that w/ ace high zupp would check behind slightly more often on the turn.

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this is key to timex river call.

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I agree with that... but what makes this a vvv tough call to make (and fold for me unless I'm really feeling it) is that Zupp's VBing range should still be 99+.. fairly large.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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this rly isnt a very interesting hand

Timex probably should have folded preflop , especially with the structure of this tournament. As played he hit a boat and c/c down. His river call was probably -ev vs most players but if he was convinced his opponent was shoving his entire range and playing a standard range on the button then it was +ev for sure, although this is a big assumption

find a better hand mabe?

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I disagree with you. Im doing a follow up on an almost identicall hand except that the results are the reversed. i think there are many levels of thinking in both hands...

As for folding pre-flop i think u have misunderstood the structure completly.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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btw, i dont think this call is standard or anything, but certainly not out of the question.

When he check calls flop and turn, zupp is prob following thru w/ air on the riv, and i think timex prob thought that w/ ace high zupp would check behind slightly more often on the turn. Not sayin this is true but its prob wat timex was thinkin.

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totally agree.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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I disagree with you. Im doing a follow up on an almost identicall hand except that the results are the reversed. i think there are many levels of thinking in both hands...



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well, you're wrong.

I'm sure timex himself can come post here and tell you no one is folding 77 on that board w/that action on the flop or turn, and that he decided to call the river because he thought the guy was bluffing more than 1/3 the time. That's it.

Poker is rarely that complicated guy, you picked a bad hand.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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I disagree with you. Im doing a follow up on an almost identicall hand except that the results are the reversed. i think there are many levels of thinking in both hands...



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well, you're wrong.

I'm sure timex himself can come post here and tell you no one is folding 77 on that board w/that action on the flop or turn, and that he decided to call the river because he thought the guy was bluffing more than 1/3 the time. That's it.

Poker is rarely that complicated guy, you picked a bad hand.

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hu grudgematch time!

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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Poker is rarely that complicated guy, you picked a bad hand.


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wait, is his name guy or do you actually say that to people?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

seriously, wtf is the point of even posting a hand like this?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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I disagree with you. Im doing a follow up on an almost identicall hand except that the results are the reversed. i think there are many levels of thinking in both hands...



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well, you're wrong.

I'm sure timex himself can come post here and tell you no one is folding 77 on that board w/that action on the flop or turn, and that he decided to call the river because he thought the guy was bluffing more than 1/3 the time. That's it.

Poker is rarely that complicated guy, you picked a bad hand.

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Its not that simple. I cant answer for timex but i believe he has went to the same thought process as i have. if that ace doesnt fall on the river I dont pay off. I fold. In fact its probably the only river im paying off. The ace on the river is the best possible card for both players. ITS THE RIVER THAT MAKES THIS HAND INTERESTING!

I dont think u have given this hand a fair chance. Have u actually tried to think a little deeper? I know you are a very good thinking player so your response and attitude suprise me.

As for a grudge match im up for it with any stakes and my word can be trusted.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

This is not about how to play poker this is a pretty simple metagame post. If timex thinks villain is playing straightforwardly, fold. If he villain thinks timex would fold to the ace b/c he could have been semibluffing with Ax, then call b/c the villain could be bluffing using this assumption. If timex thinks the villain thinks timex thinks this then fold. The most relevant information in this hand by far is known only by timex and villain.

P.S. GRUDGEMATCH HOLLA

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

Dude, it's a straightforward hand. Zupp knows what Timex has. Zupp has a better hand a lot and a worse hand a lot. Zupp would be valuebetting most better hands. He would bluff some worse hands. If he is at all competent he will be randomizing enough to make it pretty much neutral EV for Timex. This isn't 1/2 where you have to factor in that it might just be some donk who thinks the Ace is a gin card to bluff on and who would be too timid to shove Kings here.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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Poker is rarely that complicated guy, you picked a bad hand.


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wait, is his name guy or do you actually say that to people?

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=)

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

fwiw, i hate villains flop bet with air, i think its a better flop to delay cbet and if villain leads turn and you dont improve id fold... id consider the 2nd barrel on the ace if flop went check check

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

PartyGirl,

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If he is at all competent he will be randomizing enough to make it pretty much neutral EV for Timex.

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Lol at this. Do u know how hard this is? Do u have any idea?

Dont answer pls.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

oh man when did you bring back partygirluk?

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

if my view on zupp was a good solid thinking player who doesnt randomly spew off entire buyins with crap plays, i dont like the river call simply because i think it is a pretty terrible bluff spot... if i thought zupp was some spewy scandi lag who cant resist firing any board with any two, sure. havent played him tho so i cant say. it is however an obvious valueshove with pretty much all hands that beat timex. its not like its ace or air here.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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if my view on zupp was a good solid thinking player who doesnt randomly spew off entire buyins with crap plays, i dont like the river call simply because i think it is a pretty terrible bluff spot... if i thought zupp was some spewy scandi lag who cant resist firing any board with any two, sure. havent played him tho so i cant say. it is however an obvious valueshove with pretty much all hands that beat timex. its not like its ace or air here.

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second one is a much closer description, when i played him, he was as crazy as they get.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

this hand is a travesty. fold turn, fold river. your hand is face up so unless your opponent has unbalanced frequencies calling down here simply will not be profitable.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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PartyGirl,

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If he is at all competent he will be randomizing enough to make it pretty much neutral EV for Timex.

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Lol at this. Do u know how hard this is? Do u have any idea?

Dont answer pls.

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...

Nezzar, being completely objective here, Jeff and PartyGirl are pretty much right about this hand...

The only thing I see interesting about it is that it was a large pot and Timex called down. The ace is nearly an irrelevant card at these stakes because good players are jamming TT-KK on the river, too.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

results?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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I disagree with you. Im doing a follow up on an almost identicall hand except that the results are the reversed. i think there are many levels of thinking in both hands...



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well, you're wrong.

I'm sure timex himself can come post here and tell you no one is folding 77 on that board w/that action on the flop or turn, and that he decided to call the river because he thought the guy was bluffing more than 1/3 the time. That's it.

Poker is rarely that complicated guy, you picked a bad hand.

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i agree and dont post a tournament hand at 100/200 blinds and pretend its 100/200 no limit, there 2 completely different things, and this is the wrong forum for it

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

use potion of invisibility to make him fold full house

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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use potion of invincibility to make him fold full house

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FYP

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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i agree and dont post a tournament hand at 100/200 blinds and pretend its 100/200 no limit, there 2 completely different things, and this is the wrong forum for it

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This is a cash game with some cashout restrictions.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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results?

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quads