What yields you the most profit?
 

I have been a MTT player for some time now but after losing most of my roll I have decided to grind cash games. For awhile I was playing two tables $25 NL very LAG making descent money around $20-50 for 2 hours of work. I planned on doing this daily to atleast cover my rent and some bills so I could save my paychecks from my job for a house. Recently after playing ultra lag I got a comment from what I thought was a very Tight player who told me I should try playing more tables tightly because he plays 12 tables of $25 and makes roughly $200/day for 5 hours of work. (Hence his tight image) I started with 5 tables and tried taming my aggressiveness down a bit and ended up making over $100 in my first hour not to mention all the additional FTP's you get.

So my question is since I'm experimenting with my game does anyone have any advice on what they think is the most profitable when it comes to grinding micro cash games?

Eventually I want to move up in stakes and cut down on the amount of tables but multitabeling low stakes is pretty much auto pilot easy it seems.

Any good advice would be much appreciated.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

set mining

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

Not slowplaying monsters.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

I wouldn't assume that your great success over 7 hours of "LAG" play is indicative of your longterm prospects for making regular income at $25 NL. That style is high variance, and may or may not be long-term profitable for you.

My guess is that this guy...

[ QUOTE ]
... very Tight player who told me I should try playing more tables tightly because he plays 12 tables of $25 and makes roughly $200/day for 5 hours of work.

[/ QUOTE ]

... just wants you on more of his tables so he can take your money. He probably perceives your LAG style + short-term success as long-term easy money for him if he puts you on his buddy list.

There is no question that you can make some regular money if you play well, especially if you include rake back deals. But I doubt "ultra LAG" or even "LAG" will be as long-term successful as a generally tighter approach at NL $25.
Good luck.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

Is this you?

Hyper LAG strategy

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

Maybe there is some misinterpretation from my post. I have a lot more experience playing 2 table lag far more than 7 hours worth Probably around 30000-40000 hands at $25 since my roll is low, and very few losing sessions playing Lag I use PTracker and search for players that have yielded me the most profit. I was just asking if tightening up and playing more tables yields long-term profit?

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

No but I believe lag is definately the way to go way too much scared money out there.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

To be most profitable, I believe you play at what stakes are comfortable. If you play too many tables at low stakes, you are going to lose profit. If you play to high, then you will be loss adverse and play bad. Just make sure your bankroll (and mind) can handle a long downswing, or your game will really suffer.

I am an aspirng TAG and feel that MTT 50NL is working well for me. Once I concentrated on making good poker plays, and not making money, my BB/100 went up.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

moving up to chase losses

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

30,000 - 40,000 hands is a pretty wide range for someone that pays a lot of attention to their PT stats.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't assume that your great success over 7 hours of "LAG" play is indicative of your longterm prospects for making regular income at $25 NL. That style is high variance, and may or may not be long-term profitable for you.

My guess is that this guy...

[ QUOTE ]
... very Tight player who told me I should try playing more tables tightly because he plays 12 tables of $25 and makes roughly $200/day for 5 hours of work.

[/ QUOTE ]

... just wants you on more of his tables so he can take your money. He probably perceives your LAG style + short-term success as long-term easy money for him if he puts you on his buddy list.

There is no question that you can make some regular money if you play well, especially if you include rake back deals. But I doubt "ultra LAG" or even "LAG" will be as long-term successful as a generally tighter approach at NL $25.
Good luck.

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I have played a few thousand hands with the guy and he has lost considerable amounts to me in that time. So I'm sure he isn't looking to play more with me but I have a good read on him and he does of me so we pretty much steer clear of each other if at all possible, If he's playing a hand strong against me it's a given he has the goods he's playing too many tables to outplay me IMO.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
30,000 - 40,000 hands is a pretty wide range for someone that pays a lot of attention to their PT stats.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean? I've only played a few thousand hands with the player I mentioned. Not looking to validate myself I do fine and have a good understanding of the game just looking for some good advice that will help me advance quicker for more profit.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

run the gammet (*proper spelling anyone?) of the master stickys, that should help you out. Try the search engine as well. This question is just too broad.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

What could we add to your game? You are winning 1 bi/hr. Most of us are shooting for 5-10% of that per table. Please post some hands and tell us more about your strategy.

Landlord,
I think the term you are looking for is gamut : an entire range or series

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
run the gammet (*proper spelling anyone?) of the master stickys, that should help you out. Try the search engine as well. This question is just too broad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Question is actually not too broad just looking to see what other people play if they are not rolled for the higher stakes and what makes them the most profit.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

hand-reading and valuebetting, table selection

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What could we add to your game? You are winning 1 bi/hr. Most of us are shooting for 5-10% of that per table. Please post some hands and tell us more about your strategy.

Landlord,
I think the term you are looking for is gamut : an entire range or series

[/ QUOTE ]


I actually look to make 3.33/hr/table thats what I set out to do after 5 tabeling for a bit. I shoot for profit of between $30-50 dollars per day and average b/w 2-3.5 hours a day. As for my stratagy I play lag is all I can say I'm not going to dig through my handhistories to explain how I play but will say that I have no problem getting my big hands paid off and win a lot of small pots as well. Now every once in a while I might loose to set over set, large pair to my large pair or a misread for a descent pot but for the most part I play hands that if I get played with I know exactly where I'm at and can get away from trouble fairly easily. My main interest is finding out what others do for profit so maybe I can adapt my game to move up in stakes a lot quicker. It's hard for me to do when I cash out a $1000/ month for rent. I would like to be able to grow a roll as well as take care of my rent so I'm looking to make more to increase my stakes.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

Since nearly everyone here plays a TAG strategy, I would like to see and hear how you play a LAG strategy, so I can mix my game up.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to dig through my handhistories to explain how I play

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably in the wrong place then. Thats what we do here. Seriously, the questions you ask are very broad. You are going to have to post hands in order for us to help you out.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What yields you the most profit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $72.60
Hero (UTG): $140.90
UTG+1: $38.05
MP: $70.50
CO: $73.15
BTN: $87.40
SB: $57.15

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $4</font>, 2 folds, CO calls $4, 2 folds, BB calls $3

Flop: ($12.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $10</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $69.15 and is All-In</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $59.15

Turn: ($150.80) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($150.80) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $150.80 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Jacks) and WON $147.80 (+$74.65 NET)
CO mucked K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and LOST (-$73.15 NET)

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to dig through my handhistories to explain how I play

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably in the wrong place then. Thats what we do here. Seriously, the questions you ask are very broad. You are going to have to post hands in order for us to help you out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look if you read my original question it's pretty cut and dry. What games and how many do you play to make the most profit. Isn't that complicated. I wasn't asking for specific hand advice or I would post hand histories.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

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Since nearly everyone here plays a TAG strategy, I would like to see and hear how you play a LAG strategy, so I can mix my game up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely cold call. I raise and I raise some more. I put people on the defensive. Most people play must hit the flop poker. I play you better hit the flop poker. It yields me a good profit. I usually get my mosters paid and rarely put too much at risk in a speculative play.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since nearly everyone here plays a TAG strategy, I would like to see and hear how you play a LAG strategy, so I can mix my game up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely cold call. I raise and I raise some more. I put people on the defensive. Most people play must hit the flop poker. I play you better hit the flop poker. It yields me a good profit. I usually get my mosters paid and rarely put too much at risk in a speculative play.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a TAG strategy.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look if you read my original question it's pretty cut and dry.

[/ QUOTE ]

People aren't being overly helpful because your original post was silly and was saying like "hey, I played a few hours like this and if I can keep up this unsustainable win rate I'll be able to pay my rent with poker."

Okay. So now, seriously. futuredoc85 answered your question. I gave you an example. This is where the money comes from at these stakes. Play as many tables as you can while still "hand-reading and valuebetting, table selection"

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

At 25NL it is clearly much more profitable to play a TAG strat at many tables than play a LAG strat at only a few. The exact answer as to how many tables to play is a tough question. Let us assume that your true winrate at 25NL playing TAG is ~5ptbb/100, which is reasonable. Let us also assume that playing LAG you can earn 7ptbb/100. (These numbers are totally off the top of my head). Lets say you play 2-3 tables with the LAG strat. but no more because playing LAG requires more attention to opponents tendencies, image, etc. 3 tables at a time playing LAG will yield ~7ptbb/100 per table. Assume that it takes 1.2 hours to play 100 hands per table so you will be earning ~21ptbb/1.2 hours.
Multitabling 25NL playing TAG earns 5ptbb/100 per table so playing 3 tables earns 15ptbb/1.2 hours. Also assume that adding one additional table past 3 playing TAG reduces your winrate linearly by 0.4ptbb/100. Every 1.2 hours you will be earning:

y=5x-0.4(x-3),

where x is # of tables

playing 6 tables e.g. yields: 28.8ptbb/1.2 hours, which as you can see is already higher than 3 tabling LAGgy.
You can even go further and use calculus to find what # of tables yields your max winrate using the above equation, but I wont go into that here.
If any of the math super nerds out there want to do so plaese do. Also if you could standardize the equation to ptbb/hour rather than 1.2 hours that would help.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look if you read my original question it's pretty cut and dry.

[/ QUOTE ]

People aren't being overly helpful because your original post was silly and was saying like "hey, I played a few hours like this and if I can keep up this unsustainable win rate I'll be able to pay my rent with poker."

Okay. So now, seriously. futuredoc85 answered your question. I gave you an example. This is where the money comes from at these stakes. Play as many tables as you can while still "hand-reading and valuebetting, table selection"

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not to the letter specific but silly it is not. I have put any many hours on my game just asking for what other people do. I never played over 2 tables at once but now I'm venturing into it and wanted to see what others were doing. Asking for honest opinions is not silly. I'm not looking to be ridiculed for wanting to improve my game and profitability I'm just looking to go to the next level.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At 25NL it is clearly much more profitable to play a TAG strat at many tables than play a LAG strat at only a few. The exact answer as to how many tables to play is a tough question. Let us assume that your true winrate at 25NL playing TAG is ~5ptbb/100, which is reasonable. Let us also assume that playing LAG you can earn 7ptbb/100. (These numbers are totally off the top of my head). Lets say you play 2-3 tables with the LAG strat. but no more because playing LAG requires more attention to opponents tendencies, image, etc. 3 tables at a time playing LAG will yield ~7ptbb/100 per table. Assume that it takes 1.2 hours to play 100 hands per table so you will be earning ~21ptbb/1.2 hours.
Multitabling 25NL playing TAG earns 5ptbb/100 per table so playing 3 tables earns 15ptbb/1.2 hours. Also assume that adding one additional table past 3 playing TAG reduces your winrate linearly by 0.4ptbb/100. Every 1.2 hours you will be earning:

y=5x-0.4(x-3),

where x is # of tables

playing 6 tables e.g. yields: 28.8ptbb/1.2 hours, which as you can see is already higher than 3 tabling LAGgy.
You can even go further and use calculus to find what # of tables yields your max winrate using the above equation, but I wont go into that here.
If any of the math super nerds out there want to do so plaese do. Also if you could standardize the equation to ptbb/hour rather than 1.2 hours that would help.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a great response thank you. I greatly appreciate it. I did notice I had to tighten up for 5 tables as 1 pot to the river takes my win rate down fairly quick so I have to be a lot more careful of the pots I enter which is definately going to be an adjustment to my usual 2 table strategy. Thanks for the calculation should help me get to where I'm wanting to be.

Re: What yields you the most profit?
 

No problem. I actually made a few mistakes in that post. Yout winrate should actually decrease quadratically rather than linearly e.g. -0.4x to the power 1.2. Then you can determine the # of tables that yield a max winrate. Anyway my post was only a brief summary of the math but it gives you an idea of how to think about this.