HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

Villain (aba20) and I have quite a bit of history and after losing a few fairly big pots previously, I was definitely sure that he was tilting at the start of this hand. Now, I don't always 3bet AAxx against him, but given the flow of the game, I thought there was a good chance that he might 4bet and we could get it in preflop. Anyways, this is a bizarre hand because he is usually pretty tight and would never, unless on bizarro-tilt, check-raise turn with anything but the nuts (and I obv have the blocker)... How would you guys play this on every street and what hand range do you put him on here?

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $50 BB (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($18859.50)
BB ($9620.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $150</font>, BB calls $100.

Flop: ($300) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $250</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $750</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2000</font>, BB calls $1250.

Turn: ($4300) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $7470.5

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

this is really strange, and i'm really curious.

The fact that you have the Kc and that he won't likely do this with a Qhigh flush makes it more likely that he has a set; your raise on the flop could've convinced him that this isn't how you play the nut flush, although this is certainly how *I'd* expect you to play the nut flush.

You have an eight and a king, which hurts if he does have an underflush.

Tilting opponents are much more likely to put you on a bluff.

Brian has to know that check-calling the turn with 88 is terrible; he does not know this about the Q high flush.

Brian understands that against your turn c/r calling range, he'd much rather have a set then a low flush.


He has no particular reason to put you on AA, given your 3betting range, but it has to be in the back of his head; this one might incline him to play an underflush fast. Not sure how heavily this weighs, though.



All told I think his range is either 88/77, probably with a flush blocker, or is a small-mid flush that has some kind of minor redraw. I think the 88 is enough of his range (it only needs to be 20% or so, and it might be significantly more) that this is a call; the most important factor to me is that a set fairs much better against your calling range then a flush does.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

Oops, for some reason I had thought that I 3bet it here preflop.. Damn it, that just makes this hand so much weirder...

edit: He'a also not usually pretty tight; don't know why I said that either.. He plays a very smart LAG style with very high AFs on all streets.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I think this is an underflush almost always. His (Brians) line (I think) is designed to get action from as large of a range as possible that Gordo can have in the event that Brian is up against a higher flush. I would be very suprised if he turned over a naked set, which would most likely be bottom set given Gordos hand and the board.

Also, I think Brian might view Gordos range after the flop reraise heavily corrolated to Sets or Higher Flushes. Brians flat call on the flop might of been to see if the turn paired the board before he committed the rest of his stack against Gordos percieved range of Sets/Higher Flushes.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

well u need to call 4.5 to win 14.8 so you dont need to have the best hand very often.

isnt 2nd best both ways, ie QcTc8x8x a very probable hand?
and he goes "[censored] it he could have the K with a set and semibluff hardcore and if he has the K-flush i probably have outs would be so sickly rigged #%#&amp;/¤/ if he has me both ways".

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

Im position I, really considering call flop, reraise turn line. Cause I think it bether represent nuts in position. And it get more value when he is out of line, look less blufsy.
Your range is obvs huge here raising button HU.

As played Its a crying call.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

i think it's a fold, although it's obviously closer if he's in a weird mood. 1) a big part of his range is something like a small/medium flush with 2 pair or a set. 2) from his perspective, it's pretty unlikely that you have the nut flush, and the king of spades on the turn makes it even less so. 3) he probably expects you to play AA exactly the way you did here, and there are more combinations of AAxx here than there are of Kcxcxx -- especially since a lot of the latter either won't raise preflop or won't 3-bet the flop. 4) you'd like to think these combine to mean he'll be putting big moves on you, but more often than not i find it means he's just going to commit his stack with a weaker holding (which still has you crushed). since he probably doesn't expect you to fold AA, he probably has it beat.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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Im position I, really considering call flop, reraise turn line.

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I like this line too. the turn will usually go c/b/f, b/r/f, or c/b/r/r/f.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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he probably expects you to play AA exactly the way you did here

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what????

why would he ever expect me to play AAxx like this when its this deep? or ever really?

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

1. Work on your game selection skills.
2. I don't mind your line, but I would be betting full pot on turn to commit myself should he decide to take it to the felt.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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he probably expects you to play AA exactly the way you did here

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what????

why would he ever expect me to play AAxx like this when its this deep? or ever really?

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are you saying you wouldn't?

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

yes, obviously. do you always felt when you flop a set on a flush board? I mean, that truly doesnt make any sense...

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

i seen sbrugby make some strange plays(stupid) in the past.



i am positive rugby uses every weapon against you gordo because he knows that you are going to play a long session where "motivation" plays have ev.

i wouldnt fold this in a million years against rugby on the turn........espeacially when brian is tilted.

if brian doesnt have a flush or 888 in this spot, he should quit poker.

ive also seen brian play a hand damn near exactly the same way with no flush and hit a set of kings on the turn and played it the exact same way.

rugby will try to represent anything sometimes espeacially when a few 100bb deep. thats what makes him tough.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I'd almost always call the flop/raise the turn here. It just looks so strong against a good opponent. Of course, if he's good enough to 3rd level on that and call weak when you make the delayed bluff, I guess you might want to play it different. Do you really 3-bet the nut flush on the flop though? I can't remember ever doing that.

As much as you'd like to maximize your equity if you get caught bluffing with a set, I think I like waiting for the turn here just because it brings your fold equity up so much.

As played, call. You're so short that you only have to pick off a semi-bluff once in a blue moon to make it worth calling. I think an unpredictable good LAG opponent will put you on the naked K enough with this line to make calling with top set worthwhile.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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yes, obviously. do you always felt when you flop a set on a flush board? I mean, that truly doesnt make any sense...

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I think there are a lot of reasons to play top set very aggressively on the flush board, and would expect others to do the same.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I think he's got to have a flush the vast majority of the time. he'd be crazy to run big check-raise bluffs out of position that offer you 4:1 much, and his reraise range on the flop should include sets more than weaker flushes. actually, if you are agro, his range should skew even smaller as he'll make more on check-raising the turn and not letting you get away from weaker flushes, bluffs and missed sets.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

the ony hand i can really put him on here is something like 889T w/clubs, where hes thinking either you have a better flush and he has outs, or AAxx and hes ahead. part of your range would also be the bare king from his point of view, so by getting his money in on the turn hes kind of hedging his bets a little figuring overall his situation is +ev, but he dosent really know where you are at

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I agree with pete that playing top set fast on a flush board is often a good idea... if your opponent will fold even just his low flushes to the action your equity is pretty huge.

The problem with waiting until the turn, obviously, is that if we do get called we're in a way worse spot. On the flop we're generally going to be in the 40% to win range, which after a bet and a raise anyway is almost justified without any fold equity.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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I agree with pete that playing top set fast on a flush board is often a good idea... if your opponent will fold even just his low flushes to the action your equity is pretty huge.



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as a rare move, sure, I completely agree, but having that play be your standard is a pretty big leak IMO if you are playing opponents that are willing to adjust to your style even a little bit.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

Assuming you're willing to do the same with the nut flush I don't think it's that bad at all. Just calling straight and flush flops with sets is tricky because it tends to kill your implied odds, and unless you're habitually trapping with nut straights and flushes it telegraphs your hand quite often. Obviously mixing it up is important, but as a sort of common line I prefer playing both types of hands fast to playing them both slow.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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Assuming you're willing to do the same with the nut flush I don't think it's that bad at all. Just calling straight and flush flops with sets is tricky because it tends to kill your implied odds, and unless you're habitually trapping with nut straights and flushes it telegraphs your hand quite often. Obviously mixing it up is important, but as a sort of common line I prefer playing both types of hands fast to playing them both slow.

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unless you have the balls to consistently fire 3 bullets with sets when the board doesnt pair, good players will:
A.) pick up on your high betting frequency on flush boards and increase their flop and turn call frequencies, making it an essential tug-of-war IMO.
B.) simply start to c/c flop and c/r turn bets with nut flushes.
** maybe I'm biased because I tend to mostly play HU and otherwise shorthanded.

Also, your prescribed style of play doesn't make much sense to me especially because you tend to play full 6-max games where stack sizes are not always deep and playing sets like this will IMO usually result in leaking money to stubborn shorter stacks.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I'm talking explicitly about hu, which has been my main game for the last few weeks.

If i'm on the button and raise PF with AA and the flop is Axx monotone and the action is c/b/r, I really don't mind pushing.

If the action is c/b/c, you have a whole slew of options.

my focus here is more specifically with whether or not we should felt top set, not whether we should triple barrel it... the latter obviously limits our options tremendously, and doesn't really interest me.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

so youre recommending felting top set on monotone boards every time you get c/r on the flop in 2bet pots pre? am I reading that correctly?

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

wtih 100bb in a 3bet pot, hu, I would have no problem at all felting top set on a monotone flop, against an aggressive thinking opponent. Against a very straight-forward opponent I'd have no problem taking a free card sometimes, and if I was check/called on the flop I'd take a free look on the turn quite often.

In a 3bet pot, folding top set to a c/r for 100bb hu would be a pure error against a good player (although how we, on the button, have the betting lead in a 3bet pot is kind of curious... complete-bet-raise pf?) since the c/r's range, at least, should occasionally include sets and naked nut blockers.

checking behind would be fine in this particular hypothetical, since it's what we'd probably often do with a decent range. Otherwise I think we're getting a bit off track, and I'm getting a bit confused as to what exactly the question is.


okay so i guess you were using "2bet pot" to mean "not 3bet pot", as opposed to "a pot that was bet and raised". Here as well I'd be fine felting top set against any opponent I thought could c/r bluff or c/r a set at least occasionally.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I'm not usually asking for this, but in this hand, I'm really curious about results... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I didn't read the other replies but I would imagine he has a q-high or J-high flush with a set here. Maybe QcTc8x8x, maybe? I think it's a fold.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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I didn't read the other replies but I would imagine he has a q-high or J-high flush with a set here. Maybe QcTc8x8x, maybe? I think it's a fold.

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i think your read makes a ton of sense but brian has been losing a lot lately and brian does have tilt issues.

it really wouldnt surprise me if brian is over playing 888........going for a big pot knockout blow. it wouldnt surprise me that brian believes gordo has a flush and brian is trying to get lucky with a full house draw.

ive watched a few of these matches but i never saw this hand. i say gordo had him all the way.

and i'm still going with my twighlight zone read here and maybe putting brian on 2 red kings here too. i know, stupid read but i seen brian get really stupid when he tilts. the only difference between now and "then".......he doesnt suckout from the twighlight zone like he used to.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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I'm not usually asking for this, but in this hand, I'm really curious about results... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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im really interested too, couldnt find this one in his blog, even tho he posted a lot of hands vs gordo

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I disagree with almost everything pete wrote, that he can expect you to have AA more often than the nut flush based on your flop action. I don't think you should always bet/3bet the flop with AA here, and I certainly don't like it if you don't tend to play the nut flush equally fast. Also, there are way more combos of Kcxc than of AAxx, and an aggressive player is opening most of them on the button. Also, AA is more likely to take a free card on the turn.

I think it's a clear call. You are priced in or very close if he always has a flush, so if he ever has less it becomes a must call.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I think a c/r on the turn after calling his flop raise is the best way to rep the nuts and probably how I would have played this hand. Snd if he's in a stubborn mood or tilting and still calls you down you have outs.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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I think a c/r on the turn after calling his flop raise is the best way to rep the nuts and probably how I would have played this hand. Snd if he's in a stubborn mood or tilting and still calls you down you have outs.

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gonna be hard for me to c/r turn when im in position....

for everyone talking about how bad brian tilts, etc I think you guys underestimate him quite a bit. while he does tilt a bit, he far from "has issues" with it. he's an extremely disciplined player who very rarely lets emotions affect his play aside from perhaps loosening up his range a bit when running bad...

RoundTower; I gotta say I agree with your post on this one. I didn't really understand where Pete was coming from with his adivce either... and the play was IMO justified because both Brian and I know that I play the nut flush (and usually only the nut flush) this way... I just overplayed a semi-bluff/bet for value in this spot.



RESULTS:

I don't feel like finding the HH but I called the turn (a pretty obvious call IMO) and Brian wound up showing TTxx with little clubs, the river blanked, and he wound up taking down a large pot with his aggresive play. Later, he obviously just said that he was tilting and that I was reading too far into the hand when I told him that my play was bothering me, so I just wanted to post this to make sure that I had put him on the correct range on the turn.

Thanks for the responses.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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I disagree with almost everything pete wrote, that he can expect you to have AA more often than the nut flush based on your flop action. I don't think you should always bet/3bet the flop with AA here, and I certainly don't like it if you don't tend to play the nut flush equally fast. Also, there are way more combos of Kcxc than of AAxx, and an aggressive player is opening most of them on the button. Also, AA is more likely to take a free card on the turn.

I think it's a clear call. You are priced in or very close if he always has a flush, so if he ever has less it becomes a must call.

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Upon further review, Gordo was getting a better price than I thought, so I definitely agree that you're priced in to call, since aba only has to have junk or a lower set 5% of the time or so to make it profitable.

The card combinations are very close, and by my rough math, post-flop play being equal, gordo is more likely to have AAxx if he raises his Kcxcxx hands any less than ~85% of the time.

As for the subjective stuff, I don't know, it still just feels to me like aba was waiting for a safe turn to shove his smaller flush, expecting to be ahead. And yes, given the action, I expect aba to think gordo is more likely to be semi-bluffing top set than to be fast-playing the nuts, even though that shouldn't be the case if gordo is playing game-theoretically perfect. But I've never played aba so what do I know.

edit: absolutely not trying to brag, and I could still be way off base about the hand, but I'd just like to note that I didn't see gordo's results before posting this.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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I think a c/r on the turn after calling his flop raise is the best way to rep the nuts and probably how I would have played this hand. Snd if he's in a stubborn mood or tilting and still calls you down you have outs.

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gonna be hard for me to c/r turn when im in position....

for everyone talking about how bad brian tilts, etc I think you guys underestimate him quite a bit. while he does tilt a bit, he far from "has issues" with it. he's an extremely disciplined player who very rarely lets emotions affect his play aside from perhaps loosening up his range a bit when running bad...

RoundTower; I gotta say I agree with your post on this one. I didn't really understand where Pete was coming from with his adivce either... and the play was IMO justified because both Brian and I know that I play the nut flush (and usually only the nut flush) this way... I just overplayed a semi-bluff/bet for value in this spot.



RESULTS:

I don't feel like finding the HH but I called the turn (a pretty obvious call IMO) and Brian wound up showing TTxx with little clubs, the river blanked, and he wound up taking down a large pot with his aggresive play. Later, he obviously just said that he was tilting and that I was reading too far into the hand when I told him that my play was bothering me, so I just wanted to post this to make sure that I had put him on the correct range on the turn.

Thanks for the responses.

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well gordo, with his holdings, you played the hand better.....he didnt.

if you knew what he was holding, would you play it any different?

brian better not tilt often because he will be an atm playing like that for 200bb's. i'm not exactly sure but i think he's close to a 40 buyin down swing now mixed with his 50/100 play too. a good chunk of that is from tilt. i dont see where the discipline is.

call it opening up your range but its still a form of tilt. its what leads to aggro tilt. not good.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

Bottom line is you could easily have the king high flush the way the hand played out. He isn't check raising the turn here with a lower than nut flush here imo unless he has a set with a lower flush. Therefore two of your pair outs are gone. Id still make a crying call given the fact that he may just have an underset. Really tough hand here bud.

edit: just read the post above and realize the results were out. Made me feel warm and fuzzy inside that my read was right. Although i've been on a huge downswing i might just have to jump on and play cash PLO today. wuz just gonna play the tourneys. LOL

edit again: read the original post again and noticed TT didn't make him a set so read was off, LOL maybe I should stick to the tourneys LOL

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

FWIW I think this hand much closer to a fold than people think. No I dont think its a fold, nor could I even do it in this position but I highly doubt Brian shows up here very often with anything less than a flush. And having all those blockers to your Full House, with only one card to come really edges this closer to a fold.

All in all, gh. Keep the deep stack HU posts coming please.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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and i'm still going with my twighlight zone read here and maybe putting brian on 2 red kings here too. i know, stupid read but i seen brian get really stupid when he tilts. the only difference between now and "then".......he doesnt suckout from the twighlight zone like he used to.

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He will never, never have two red kings here unless he has a flush to go along with them.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

I like the way the hand was played although I'd give serious thought to checking the turn since we're sitting on our own outs if brian decides to committ.

There is no way you can fold the turn here.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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and i'm still going with my twighlight zone read here and maybe putting brian on 2 red kings here too. i know, stupid read but i seen brian get really stupid when he tilts. the only difference between now and "then".......he doesnt suckout from the twighlight zone like he used to.

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He will never, never have two red kings here unless he has a flush to go along with them.

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your wrong.

i once saw sbrugby play a hand at 200/400 plo against antonius. everyone folds to patrik in the sb. patrik raises brian in the bb. brian reraises, patrik calls. the flop comes all diamonds with ace of diamonds on the flop. patrik checks, brian bets, patrik raises, brian re raises, patrik calls. turn is a king. patrik bets, brian goes all in, patrik calls. brian has 2 black kings, patrik has 3rd nut flush.

of course the river pairs the board and brian takes down a 170k pot.

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

Jesus I've misread like half of the hands I've commented on.

Nothing you can do when your opponent plays bad ;p

Re: HU 25/50 really weird spot deep
 

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and i'm still going with my twighlight zone read here and maybe putting brian on 2 red kings here too. i know, stupid read but i seen brian get really stupid when he tilts. the only difference between now and "then".......he doesnt suckout from the twighlight zone like he used to.

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He will never, never have two red kings here unless he has a flush to go along with them.

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your wrong.

i once saw sbrugby play a hand at 200/400 plo against antonius. everyone folds to patrik in the sb. patrik raises brian in the bb. brian reraises, patrik calls. the flop comes all diamonds with ace of diamonds on the flop. patrik checks, brian bets, patrik raises, brian re raises, patrik calls. turn is a king. patrik bets, brian goes all in, patrik calls. brian has 2 black kings, patrik has 3rd nut flush.

of course the river pairs the board and brian takes down a 170k pot.

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this sounds like a very very different situation.